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 Post subject: Re: Citation Jet vs. CJ1
PostPosted: 29 Mar 2021, 19:24 
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Company: Citation Jet Exchange
Location: St. Louis
Aircraft: 58P C510 C525 Excel
We're at $147/hr for cj and $165/hr cj3+. Both tap blue

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 Post subject: Re: Citation Jet vs. CJ1
PostPosted: 29 Mar 2021, 21:21 
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Joined: 07/10/10
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Location: New Braunfels, TX
Aircraft: Conquest
Username Protected wrote:
Can someone tell me how much TAP Blue costs per hour for a straight CJ right now? My information is old.

About $165/hr/engine. Varies a few bucks depending on exact engine.

Williams will tell you if you ask them.

WIproductsupport@williams-int.com

Mike C.

Thank you Mike. I emailed Williams today.

In 2020, I flew my Conquest almost exactly 300 hours. If I were to fly a straight CJ 250 hours in a year, that would equal $82,500. Is all that money just gone, or is there some premium that gets returned if I don’t “use it”.
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 Post subject: Re: Citation Jet vs. CJ1
PostPosted: 29 Mar 2021, 23:21 
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Joined: 12/03/14
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Company: Ciholas, Inc
Location: KEHR
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Username Protected wrote:
In 2020, I flew my Conquest almost exactly 300 hours. If I were to fly a straight CJ 250 hours in a year, that would equal $82,500. Is all that money just gone, or is there some premium that gets returned if I don’t “use it”.

The money is gone.

The Williams payments provide two benefits: insurance against unscheduled engine events, and prepaid major engine maintenance events. With some exceptions, Williams pays for what goes wrong with your engines, and for hot sections and overhaul.

But you do pay for that. At $165/hour, over a full 5000 hour TBO cycle, you will pay $825,000 *per engine* in program payments. That's $1,650,000 for a pair.

You may think that it would be better to be off program at those costs, but Williams is the only place you can get your major engine done, so they can control all the costs. If you are off program, magically, your TBO is now only 4000 hours, and the cost for HSI and overhaul are very high, intentionally priced higher than if you had been on the program. Effectively, there is no alternative other than to be on the program.

As for a refund if you don't use it, the opposite is true. If you go off program, for any reason including missing some payments, Williams requires that you pay ALL the past hours over gain. For example, if you are at 2500 hours since overhaul and paid on the program for most of that but stopped, then to get back on, you have to pay 2500 hours ($412,500 per engine) to get back on the program. Williams was effectively paid TWICE for hours in that case. The message is clear, don't go off program or you will suffer!

Williams also has a 150 hour per year minimum. If you fly 100 hours, then you owe them for 50 hours you didn't fly as well. Over a 5 year contract, they allow one year to be under 150 hours, whichever is the first year to be that way. So don't fly 149 hours one year, save that one year for later if you need it.

Williams sets the contract terms and prices. You have no alternatives and no bargaining power.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: Citation Jet vs. CJ1
PostPosted: 30 Mar 2021, 00:30 
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Joined: 04/24/18
Posts: 727
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Location: NYC
Aircraft: ISP Eagle II SR22 g2
Username Protected wrote:
In 2020, I flew my Conquest almost exactly 300 hours. If I were to fly a straight CJ 250 hours in a year, that would equal $82,500. Is all that money just gone, or is there some premium that gets returned if I don’t “use it”.

The money is gone.

The Williams payments provide two benefits: insurance against unscheduled engine events, and prepaid major engine maintenance events. With some exceptions, Williams pays for what goes wrong with your engines, and for hot sections and overhaul.

But you do pay for that. At $165/hour, over a full 5000 hour TBO cycle, you will pay $825,000 *per engine* in program payments. That's $1,650,000 for a pair.

You may think that it would be better to be off program at those costs, but Williams is the only place you can get your major engine done, so they can control all the costs. If you are off program, magically, your TBO is now only 4000 hours, and the cost for HSI and overhaul are very high, intentionally priced higher than if you had been on the program. Effectively, there is no alternative other than to be on the program.

As for a refund if you don't use it, the opposite is true. If you go off program, for any reason including missing some payments, Williams requires that you pay ALL the past hours over gain. For example, if you are at 2500 hours since overhaul and paid on the program for most of that but stopped, then to get back on, you have to pay 2500 hours ($412,500 per engine) to get back on the program. Williams was effectively paid TWICE for hours in that case. The message is clear, don't go off program or you will suffer!

Williams also has a 150 hour per year minimum. If you fly 100 hours, then you owe them for 50 hours you didn't fly as well. Over a 5 year contract, they allow one year to be under 150 hours, whichever is the first year to be that way. So don't fly 149 hours one year, save that one year for later if you need it.

Williams sets the contract terms and prices. You have no alternatives and no bargaining power.

Mike C.


All true. To their credit though, due to COVID, they allow their customers to swap their courtesy year to this year. If someone flew very little this year, that can mean a substantial savings.

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 Post subject: Re: Citation Jet vs. CJ1
PostPosted: 30 Mar 2021, 05:46 
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Sorry to continue sidetracking this thread, but what about the JSSI programs?

Possible to switch to JSSI from TAP (I realise all money already paid is lost). Or getting into a JSSI plan from "no plan" but with midlife engines?


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 Post subject: Re: Citation Jet vs. CJ1
PostPosted: 30 Mar 2021, 08:20 
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Joined: 07/10/10
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Location: New Braunfels, TX
Aircraft: Conquest
Response from Williams is $147.33 per hour for a straight CJ.

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 Post subject: Re: Citation Jet vs. CJ1
PostPosted: 30 Mar 2021, 08:43 
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Joined: 03/04/13
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Location: Little Rock, Ar
Aircraft: A36 C560 C551 C550S
Username Protected wrote:
Sorry to continue sidetracking this thread, but what about the JSSI programs?

Possible to switch to JSSI from TAP (I realise all money already paid is lost). Or getting into a JSSI plan from "no plan" but with midlife engines?



I’ve never understood how JSSI adds value on a Williams equipped airplane. If there were multiple shops that repair/overhaul Williams engines, then maybe JSSI could work a deal with them. Kinda like current health insurers insert themselves in the middle. But, as said above, there is only one place to get a Williams engine repaired, overhauled, and hot inspected. I’m betting Williams feels no need to leave any room for SSI to add any value.

Robert T


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 Post subject: Re: Citation Jet vs. CJ1
PostPosted: 30 Mar 2021, 09:04 
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Joined: 12/17/12
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Location: Des Moines, IA
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Quote:

All true. To their credit though, due to COVID, they allow their customers to swap their courtesy year to this year. If someone flew very little this year, that can mean a substantial savings.

Only if you’re on TAP Blue. If you’re on Elite, pony up that $$$! Although they offered “generous” offers to upgrade to Blue. If Honda could STC their engine on the 525s and offer competition I bet program terms would rapidly improve.


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 Post subject: Re: Citation Jet vs. CJ1
PostPosted: 30 Mar 2021, 09:56 
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Username Protected wrote:
But, as said above, there is only one place to get a Williams engine repaired, overhauled, and hot inspected. I’m betting Williams feels no need to leave any room for SSI to add any value.

Robert T


So looking at controller.com there are a few "straight" 525 for sale without a program. They seem cheap but will not be able to get back onto a plan without shelling out a rediculous amount of money for "nothing". Or another example which is not a CJ, but a premier 1 with damage: they stopped the TAP because of a missing wing. If the conclusion is that this aircraft can't go back to TAP even when/if they can find another wing, the only alternative is to part it out: but they should have sold the engines straight away or at least keep paying TAP to keep the engines on a plan?? I bet a lot of people don't realise this kind of mafia practice when they buy a brand new aircraft or it would seriously reduce the amount of sales.

A high time Phenom 100 comes close in terms of captital investment and is probably cheaper to run than a CJ(1), with only a Mustang (510) having lower operating costs. With the additional bonus that it doesn't need a panel upgrade.


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 Post subject: Re: Citation Jet vs. CJ1
PostPosted: 30 Mar 2021, 13:17 
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I'm pretty deep into looking at the CJ market at the moment and hope to do something this year. Lots of birds listed right now on controller (23), which is really a high number considering the airframe age and other jet options. I think that the recent price rise across a lot of jet sub-markets has brought out a bunch of CJ owners who are thinking "shoot, if I can get $X then I will upgrade..." But it's not clear to me how actively buyers are looking to pay the current asking prices. Time will tell ... this market is very hot generally so maybe that will work out for people.

And in deference to the sensibilities of others, I won't bring up the range extension afforded by the Tamarack winglets :)

GE/Honda, with Sierra Research as a partner, apparently looked hard at doing an STC to put the HF120 on the CJ. However, putting two new engines on anything isn't cheap. I'm not sure how many people would pony up perhaps 1.8-2.0 million to put those engines on a CJ which they have to acquire (off programs) for 600-900k depending on condition. For that investment level, people have options... and they quietly dropped that effort a couple years ago. Although rumor has it that there is an experimental CJ flying with those engines on it ... with 400 knot plus speeds. Just a rumor tho.

One other factor in favor of the CJ is that you can now upgrade to a full Garmin TXi/GTN750xi and GFC600 panel. That basically leaves only the original engine gauges and makes for a very clean and reasonably well-integrated panel. Can't do that on the CJ1. The 1+ with the FADEC is a different story, although the asking prices for those are comparable to a CJ2, which I have always found interesting.

Quick note: I'm not sure how much cheaper a Phenom 100 would be to operate vs. a CJ, especially given the VERY expensive mandatory gear overhaul at 10 years, which hit that bunch pretty hard. Or so my broker tells me :)

Cheers


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 Post subject: Re: Citation Jet vs. CJ1
PostPosted: 30 Mar 2021, 16:24 
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Joined: 05/23/13
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Location: Franklin, TN 615-739-9091 chip@jetacq.com
Username Protected wrote:
Or so my broker tells me :)



HEY! That's Buyer's Rep! :D

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 Post subject: Re: Citation Jet vs. CJ1
PostPosted: 30 Mar 2021, 20:57 
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Jet comparison on avbuyer: https://www.avbuyer.com/articles/jets-c ... 100-111948

Winglets were mentioned: I wouldn't install them on a CJ, but I really would consider getting one that has those already installed. In the 600-900K bracket you can already find them. If I was in the market for one I would have a look at this one: https://www.planecheck.com/aspdet.asp?nr=50755 (I am from Europe so that helps a lot)

In that bracket you also could probably find a nice C500/501 Stallion or Eagle II conversion with modern avionics. Bigger cabin and better range but again "married" to a TAP program.

Or...a C501SP with the original engines. Similar avionics options (except the autopilot, which hopefully will be available in the future for the 500/550 series), less capital.


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 Post subject: Re: Citation Jet vs. CJ1
PostPosted: 30 Mar 2021, 22:55 
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Does anybody have any numbers for the GE/Honda engine? Can you be on a program there?

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 Post subject: Re: Citation Jet vs. CJ1
PostPosted: 31 Mar 2021, 08:41 
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Username Protected wrote:
Does anybody have any numbers for the GE/Honda engine? Can you be on a program there?


Google says $150/hr/eng or so. Very similar to Williams.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... 8yeUY1QAvs


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 Post subject: Re: Citation Jet vs. CJ1
PostPosted: 31 Mar 2021, 14:00 
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Joined: 05/23/13
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Username Protected wrote:
Sorry to continue sidetracking this thread, but what about the JSSI programs?

Possible to switch to JSSI from TAP (I realise all money already paid is lost). Or getting into a JSSI plan from "no plan" but with midlife engines?


Having JSSI is better than nothing, but it does not maintain the value of the airplane. The good thing, maybe the best thing about having a Williams powered airplane on TAP is that the value of the airplane is protected. You are paying in every hour, but that money is not lost... that money is partially an investment in the resale value of the airplane.

Engine time is NOT FREE. I always hear people compare the cost of being on a program to zero. That is not the correct way to look at it. You are either sending the money to Williams or saving it for an engine event or it will be subtracted from the value of the aircraft when you sell it. Obviously part of the money is "insurance" because the cost of the program exceeds what the engine events cost, but that does have value. Most operators do not want the exposure of a six figure unscheduled engine event.

When you look at airplanes that are not typically on engine programs, the value of the airplane is based on the engine time remaining. It is true that you can buy an airplane with very low engine times and cheat the system a little... but other than that you still have to pay something for every hour you fly.

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