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 Post subject: Citation Jet vs. CJ1
PostPosted: 12 Sep 2019, 15:48 
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Trolling around in the bottom end of the 525 market.

What are the differences between the straight CJ vs. the CJ1.

I believe there's a 200 lb. gross weight increase with the CJ1, yes?

And something about AC power in the early CJ's?

Pro-line in the CJ1 vs. a mish-mash of avionics in the Citation Jet?

What else? Any other differences in engines or systems?

Thanks,

John

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 Post subject: Re: Citation Jet vs. CJ1
PostPosted: 13 Sep 2019, 05:26 
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Location: Queretaro / Woodlands
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There is a reason for the CJ1 weight increase.

The airframe and engines are exactly the same, but the average BEW of the CJ1 fleet is around 400 pounds heavier than the CJ on account of the added weight of the PL21 package. If Cessna would have installed the PL21 without the GW increase, the useful load would have been unmarketable. The GW increase was achieved by changing a couple of actuators and components in the main landing gear - nothing else. According to John Hall of Premier Jet Aviation, at one point, Cessna was going to sell a GW increase kit to retrofit earlier CJ's, but marketing killed that effort because they feared it would undercut CJ1 sales (hopefully they will revive it some day).

The CJ1 also has a half baked PL21 with no FADEC which the CJ1+ does have (along with more power). My CJ's BEW is 6450 while a typically equipped CJ1 will be pushing 7000 lbs or more. The CJ has an MTOW of 10400 while the CJ1 has an MTOW of 10600, but they both have the same engine and power - and you know what weight does to performance. On my CJ I have a full fuel payload of 770 lbs, while the full fuel payload of a typical CJ1 is going to be around 380 lbs.

Further, maintaining that early generation PL21 is quite expensive especially if one of those screens goes blank. If you want to keep it cheap, the HW flight deck can be upgraded with dual GTN750's and you will have a more capable flight deck than the PL21 CJ1 with its dated FMS.


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 Post subject: Re: Citation Jet vs. CJ1
PostPosted: 13 Sep 2019, 05:48 
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Joined: 03/09/13
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Location: Byron Bay,NSW Australia
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Username Protected wrote:
Any other differences in engines or systems?


Alex Nailed the comparison. As he said the PL21 is Frankenstein I’m the CJ1 with the UNS1 not the FMS3000.

The only other thing I can think of is the fuel transfer system. The CJ (well most of them) pull the fuel from the tank selected to the engine, the CJ1 transfers it from the tank to tank.

The price differential between the CJ to CJ1 doesn’t make sense to me.

Andrew


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 Post subject: Re: Citation Jet vs. CJ1
PostPosted: 13 Sep 2019, 05:51 
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I would add that if you are considering a 525 series aircraft, you are on the right track (ok - I'm biased).

The 525 series has proven to be one of the most successful product lines in business jet history, spawning seven different derivative models with over 1500 aircraft delivered to date and growing. And there is a reason for this success - it is a great, simple, easy to maintain and economical platform


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 Post subject: Re: Citation Jet vs. CJ1
PostPosted: 13 Sep 2019, 16:01 
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Alex,

Thank you for your insight. What is the fuel capacity of the CJ?

John

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 Post subject: Re: Citation Jet vs. CJ1
PostPosted: 13 Sep 2019, 20:03 
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Username Protected wrote:
Alex,

Thank you for your insight. What is the fuel capacity of the CJ?

John

It's 3220 lbs (official) and it will go up to 3400 to the tabs if you overfill it but you cannot take this extra fuel into account for your calculations.


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 Post subject: Re: Citation Jet vs. CJ1
PostPosted: 13 Sep 2019, 22:07 
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Joined: 05/23/13
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Alex did a great job of explaining the differences. We acquired a couple of CJ1's for clients in 2017 because we caught that market in a lull caused by ADS-B. Today the prices have rebounded and they aren't the "buy" that they were.

The CJ is a better performer, the CJ1 is newer... the old saying is a 1999 is ten years older than a 2000... the CJ1+ is a great airplane and the M2 is my favorite airplane of that category. (sorry Phenom 100 fans)

Depending on your budget I would suggest looking at both CJ's and CJ1's... a smoking deal on a CJ1 will tip the scales. Let the deal decide.

This is the time of the year to make a buy, our phones are ringing with both potential clients and owners / brokers letting us know what they have to sell in case we have a client that is looking for what they have.

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 Post subject: Re: Citation Jet vs. CJ1
PostPosted: 14 Sep 2019, 15:36 
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Thanks All,

Great information. This is why I hang out on Beechtalk. You just can't get the information on the web that you can here.

John

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 Post subject: Re: Citation Jet vs. CJ1
PostPosted: 14 Sep 2019, 16:33 
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I have some bias but think a G1000 CJ is a really good value. Competes in similar territory price wise as a CJ1, but has much better avionics and usually a bit better payload by over a couple hundred pounds.

When I go train in the sim with PL21, I'm just amazed at how much more work it takes to get reacquainted with those avionics. Don't get me wrong the PL21 is solid and has a few things I like, I don't like how scattered it is.


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 Post subject: Re: Citation Jet vs. CJ1
PostPosted: 14 Sep 2019, 20:36 
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I would agree with Brent 100%... but I’m also biased.


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 Post subject: Re: Citation Jet vs. CJ1
PostPosted: 14 Sep 2019, 22:58 
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Username Protected wrote:
I have some bias but think a G1000 CJ is a really good value. Competes in similar territory price wise as a CJ1, but has much better avionics and usually a bit better payload by over a couple hundred pounds.


Just important to remember that as of now, that G1000 install is frozen in time. I would like to see the STC surrendered or supported. I actually think there should be a mechanism where an STC expires if not supported by the owner.

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 Post subject: Re: Citation Jet vs. CJ1
PostPosted: 15 Sep 2019, 08:45 
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Username Protected wrote:
I have some bias but think a G1000 CJ is a really good value. Competes in similar territory price wise as a CJ1, but has much better avionics and usually a bit better payload by over a couple hundred pounds.


Just important to remember that as of now, that G1000 install is frozen in time. I would like to see the STC surrendered or supported. I actually think there should be a mechanism where an STC expires if not supported by the owner.


And the PL 21 isn't frozen in time? The rev that the G1000 is in for the CJ is light years ahead of the early generation PL21 used in the CJ1.

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 Post subject: Re: Citation Jet vs. CJ1
PostPosted: 15 Sep 2019, 09:29 
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Joined: 12/07/17
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Username Protected wrote:
Just important to remember that as of now, that G1000 install is frozen in time. I would like to see the STC surrendered or supported. I actually think there should be a mechanism where an STC expires if not supported by the owner.


They should be like patents. A certain number of years of exclusive use by the creator and then they go public and freely available.


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 Post subject: Re: Citation Jet vs. CJ1
PostPosted: 15 Sep 2019, 10:48 
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Username Protected wrote:
They should be like patents. A certain number of years of exclusive use by the creator and then they go public and freely available.

Even if that was true, that still doesn't mean the STC magically is allowed to have updates. Somebody would have to spend the money to get the update approved.

And who would do that if the STC is now public?

What needs to happen is either the OEM figures out how to get the STC updated to allow updates, or somebody else seeks an STC on top of the original one to get updates.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: Citation Jet vs. CJ1
PostPosted: 15 Sep 2019, 10:51 
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Username Protected wrote:
Just important to remember that as of now, that G1000 install is frozen in time. I would like to see the STC surrendered or supported. I actually think there should be a mechanism where an STC expires if not supported by the owner.


In a more perfect world !

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