BeechTalk - BT - Used Aircraft Market (Turbine) August 2019

Username Protected · **Posted:** 06 Sep 2019, 15:26

Username Protected wrote:

Back to topic.

Talked to owner of a citation sii last week. Book numbers are crazy. When you start doing real world loading math, it isn’t very good. Essentially you can go far or carry a lot. Pick one. They just got a cj4. Comment was it’s book range really depends on direct climbs and that it still suffers a bit from the carry a lot vs go far equation.

I have been running Foreflight profiles for all kinds of jets recently. It’s amazing how slow the single pilot ones are when you want to go far ex cj3,4,p300. Cj2 doing 380kts is just not that much faster on a long trip than a 300 mile turboprop and with the jet range being so dependent on flying high, as soon as the wind picks up you are stopping in one direction.

Running a premier flat out all the time and stopping for gas more often appears to yield the best door to door times vs capex.

Unfortunately I always come to the same conclusion. I'm trying to dry lease a CJ3 right now to get my feet wet. That'll help me decide if I want to go all in on a CJ3 or trade my PC12NG for a newer one and call it.

I'm doing a ton of 1500NM flight in the PC12 lately. They're long but I'm fine because the PC12 is so big and comfy. It's a tough call. On board internet would be a game changer for me.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 06 Sep 2019, 16:30

Username Protected wrote:

Back to topic.

Talked to owner of a citation sii last week. Book numbers are crazy. When you start doing real world loading math, it isn’t very good. Essentially you can go far or carry a lot. Pick one. They just got a cj4. Comment was it’s book range really depends on direct climbs and that it still suffers a bit from the carry a lot vs go far equation.

I have been running Foreflight profiles for all kinds of jets recently. It’s amazing how slow the single pilot ones are when you want to go far ex cj3,4,p300. Cj2 doing 380kts is just not that much faster on a long trip than a 300 mile turboprop and with the jet range being so dependent on flying high, as soon as the wind picks up you are stopping in one direction.

Running a premier flat out all the time and stopping for gas and parts more often appears to yield the best door to door times vs capex.

FIFY

Username Protected · **Posted:** 07 Sep 2019, 07:58

Go far and carry a lot is why we recently did a Blackhawk 350 project when I fully expected that the client would opt for a CJ3 instead. We’re currently seeing a lot of interest in the King Air 300 with -67’s... 1800 lbs full fuel useful and 350 kts is pretty impressive.

Add Centex Saddle Tanks and you have more capabilities than anything in that price range / op cost.

It’s enough to make Jason want to buy a King Air!

Username Protected · **Posted:** 07 Sep 2019, 08:08

Back to the market...

I’m up in Nashville for the Stevens Aerospace 37th Annual Golf Tournament, I was at their facility yesterday and it was packed. I have one in prebuy at Textron San Antonio, they are packed and the ramp is full. I’m headed to Textron Tampa tomorrow... guessing they’ll be packed as well.

It now takes almost as long to get a quote for paint and interior as it use to take to DO paint and interior! As far as getting it done... next year.

We still aren’t seeing near as many people take advantage of Bonus Depreciation as I expected. I just don’t think people are aware of it, should something crazy happen and we lose it, I’m sure there will be a lot of “should have” talk.

My thoughts on the market are that nice airplanes that are priced right are hotter than I have ever seen... everything else is meh.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 07 Sep 2019, 08:29

Username Protected wrote:

Go far and carry a lot is why we recently did a Blackhawk 350 project when I fully expected that the client would opt for a CJ3 instead. We’re currently seeing a lot of interest in the King Air 300 with -67’s... 1800 lbs full fuel useful and 350 kts is pretty impressive.

Add Centex Saddle Tanks and you have more capabilities than anything in that price range / op cost.

It’s enough to make Jason want to buy a King Air!

We’ll see what Pilatus announces next month.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 07 Sep 2019, 08:50

Username Protected wrote:

Back to the market...

...

My thoughts on the market are that nice airplanes that are priced right are hotter than I have ever seen... everything else is meh.

This makes sense considering that services are so scarce. Why buy a fixer upper when it takes 18 months and unknown $ to get it back. Better to have a good plane, albeit at a higher capex, now than an unknown plane in 18 months.

The private piston market is similar. Good planes go fast at a decent price. Fixer uppers linger at almost any price. It is hard to find a good shop with availability.

Just an amateur's thoughts.

Ben

Username Protected · **Posted:** 07 Sep 2019, 09:38

Ben is right.

You buy a traveling plane because your time is valuable and you need to be able to travel. Buying a plane and then being down for months awaiting upgrade is a real hit on the value.

Shops are way behind. I just upgraded a simple Cessna 182 and it took almost a year from quote to finish.

KJ

Username Protected · **Posted:** 07 Sep 2019, 09:48

“We still aren’t seeing near as many people take advantage of Bonus Depreciation as I expected. I just don’t think people are aware of it, should something crazy happen and we lose it, I’m sure there will be a lot of “should have” talk.”

I think that anyone with the financial means to buy and operate a turbine aircraft certainly has a CPA who is fully aware of the depreciation rules. And they are advising their clients accordingly. It’s simply not a freebie. You can pay now, or you pay later. The pay later scenario on a multi-million dollar write off leaves a huge unknown full of a lot of assumptions.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 11 Sep 2019, 17:03

Username Protected wrote:

I think that anyone with the financial means to buy and operate a turbine aircraft certainly has a CPA who is fully aware of the depreciation rules. And they are advising their clients accordingly.

It's my experience that the opposite is true, our clients really struggle to find a CPA that is a) aviation friendly and b) knows the ins and outs of bonus depreciation on aircraft. We refer our clients to aviation tax folks, some of whom are here on BT.

I've asked before, but still hopeful, anyone who has a CPA firm that knows aircraft and bonus depreciation and can handle a small - medium size business, give me their contact info, I'll send them business.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 11 Sep 2019, 20:47

It is incumbent upon the business owner to know what’s available to them as far as the tax law. Yes accountings firms do fill in the minor details but in nearly 50 years of business I can’t say several of our accounting firms have ever brought us anything in significant tax savings.

The new tax law allowing full expensing of asset and capex doesn’t require a rocket scientist to figure out weather or not it works for you. We bought four citations in the last year.

Gary

Username Protected · **Posted:** 11 Sep 2019, 20:59

Username Protected wrote:

I think that anyone with the financial means to buy and operate a turbine aircraft certainly has a CPA who is fully aware of the depreciation rules. And they are advising their clients accordingly.

It's my experience that the opposite is true, our clients really struggle to find a CPA that is a) aviation friendly and b) knows the ins and outs of bonus depreciation on aircraft. We refer our clients to aviation tax folks, some of whom are here on BT.

I've asked before, but still hopeful, anyone who has a CPA firm that knows aircraft and bonus depreciation and can handle a small - medium size business, give me their contact info, I'll send them business.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 11 Sep 2019, 21:00

Username Protected wrote:

...closest hospital 80 miles away ...

closest anything is 80 miles away. If I were hidin' from the law, I'd be in Terlingua.

But Lajitas is the nicest golf course I've ever played. I need to go back.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 11 Sep 2019, 21:10

Username Protected wrote:

...closest hospital 80 miles away ...

closest anything is 80 miles away. If I were hidin' from the law, I'd be in Terlingua.

But Lajitas is the nicest golf course I've ever played. I need to go back.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 12 Sep 2019, 11:09

Username Protected wrote:

Talked to owner of a citation sii last week. Book numbers are crazy. When you start doing real world loading math, it isn’t very good. Essentially you can go far or carry a lot. Pick one. They just got a cj4. Comment was it’s book range really depends on direct climbs and that it still suffers a bit from the carry a lot vs go far equation.

I own an SII and that is about the most versatile plane we own. As an example a flight this morning coast to coast from San Diego to JFK nonstop, 2,150 nm, at MCT, Max ceiling, and max payload are as follows:

Citation SII Time 5:21 - Fuel 5,020 lbs - Block 138 gph - Passenger Load 800 lbs
Citation 3+ Time 5:13 - Fuel 4,256 lbs - Block 119 gph - PL 850 lbs
Citation 4 Time 4:43 - Fuel 5,048 lbs - Block 156 gph - PL 1,150 lbs

PC12 can't make that nonstop
Citation 2+ can't make that trip nonstop
MU2 can't make that nonstop
Merlin can do it.

The Legacy aircraft aren't for everybody by these were and still are great planes.

Gary

Username Protected · **Posted:** 12 Sep 2019, 17:10

Username Protected wrote:

Citation SII Time 5:21 - Fuel 5,020 lbs - Block 138 gph - Passenger Load 800 lbs

~800 lbs reserve. That's a bit tight for a NYC airport given routing and other factors. I don't think I would actually expect this to work in real life.

A decent amount of tailwinds on this route, too. This is not a sure leg on any given day, and going back will require a stop on most days.

Quote:

The Legacy aircraft aren't for everybody by these were and still are great planes.

Yes, they are.

Mike C.