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 Post subject: Re: Used Aircraft Market (Turbine) August 2019
PostPosted: 27 Aug 2019, 12:13 
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FWIW... do not know if that is what is happening. Or, a twist on what Jason said is the buyer demand is steady, but the output is just way higher than it should be.

I think the answer to that question is "how fast do most folks upgrade airplanes if they just bought one"? Upgrading cars every year or 2 is easy. Buying and selling airplanes is a little more difficult and expensive. I personally can't see needing to upgrade so quickly unless I completely screwed up the original purchase.

What's that statistic? 99% of all GA flights are less than an hour with 1 or 2 pax on board?


The answer is it depends on the airplane. If you look at the Mustang - M2 - CJ3+ upgrade path it usually happens quite rapidly. We have three clients that upgraded in the last few months after owning the airplane we originally acquired for them less than two years.

We actually have clients who are buying knowing they’ll upgrade soon, but they need a stair-step for various reasons.

It is true that most “GA” flights are a couple of people... but when you get into turbines, especially jets, that requirement changes rapidly. Even if most of their flights are a few people, they want to be able to haul the load when needed.

You are not abnormal, PC-12 owners upgrade much less often. There’s no where to go, unless you go into a jet. One of the recent upgrades I mentioned was from the PC-12 we bought him to an M2, and I’m sure before long he’ll be in a CJ3+... but it is rare for a Pilatus owner to step down in size and utility to a small jet.

King Air 350 owners don’t upgrade as often either, and when they do it’s usually to an Encore / XLS / Lear 75 or Challenger 300
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 Post subject: Re: Used Aircraft Market (Turbine) August 2019
PostPosted: 27 Aug 2019, 15:43 
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The answer is it depends on the airplane. If you look at the Mustang - M2 - CJ3+ upgrade path it usually happens quite rapidly. We have three clients that upgraded in the last few months after owning the airplane we originally acquired for them less than two years.

We actually have clients who are buying knowing they’ll upgrade soon, but they need a stair-step for various reasons.

It is true that most “GA” flights are a couple of people... but when you get into turbines, especially jets, that requirement changes rapidly. Even if most of their flights are a few people, they want to be able to haul the load when needed.

You are not abnormal, PC-12 owners upgrade much less often. There’s no where to go, unless you go into a jet. One of the recent upgrades I mentioned was from the PC-12 we bought him to an M2, and I’m sure before long he’ll be in a CJ3+... but it is rare for a Pilatus owner to step down in size and utility to a small jet.

King Air 350 owners don’t upgrade as often either, and when they do it’s usually to an Encore / XLS / Lear 75 or Challenger 300

I'm hot on the CJ3+. Love them.


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 Post subject: Re: Used Aircraft Market (Turbine) August 2019
PostPosted: 27 Aug 2019, 15:47 
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Username Protected wrote:
The answer is it depends on the airplane. If you look at the Mustang - M2 - CJ3+ upgrade path it usually happens quite rapidly. We have three clients that upgraded in the last few months after owning the airplane we originally acquired for them less than two years.

We actually have clients who are buying knowing they’ll upgrade soon, but they need a stair-step for various reasons.

It is true that most “GA” flights are a couple of people... but when you get into turbines, especially jets, that requirement changes rapidly. Even if most of their flights are a few people, they want to be able to haul the load when needed.

You are not abnormal, PC-12 owners upgrade much less often. There’s no where to go, unless you go into a jet. One of the recent upgrades I mentioned was from the PC-12 we bought him to an M2, and I’m sure before long he’ll be in a CJ3+... but it is rare for a Pilatus owner to step down in size and utility to a small jet.

King Air 350 owners don’t upgrade as often either, and when they do it’s usually to an Encore / XLS / Lear 75 or Challenger 300

I'm hot on the CJ3+. Love them.


We just moved a M2 owner/pilot to a 3+ earlier this summer. He's thrilled with the move, and he only had the M2 for about 8 months.
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 Post subject: Re: Used Aircraft Market (Turbine) August 2019
PostPosted: 27 Aug 2019, 15:48 
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What do people seem to be finding lacking in the M2? Size? Performance?

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 Post subject: Re: Used Aircraft Market (Turbine) August 2019
PostPosted: 27 Aug 2019, 15:52 
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We just moved a M2 owner/pilot to a 3+ earlier this summer. He's thrilled with the move, and he only had the M2 for about 8 months.

I love tracking flights on FA. I tracked a 3+ doing Champagne IL to Sonoma non stop. 1500NM in 4.5. That's about 6.5 in the PC12. I'll bet they had a lot of fun. :D


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 Post subject: Re: Used Aircraft Market (Turbine) August 2019
PostPosted: 27 Aug 2019, 15:52 
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Username Protected wrote:
What do people seem to be finding lacking in the M2? Size? Performance?


For our client, it was range. He loved the airplane, otherwise.

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 Post subject: Re: Used Aircraft Market (Turbine) August 2019
PostPosted: 27 Aug 2019, 16:44 
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Username Protected wrote:
What do people seem to be finding lacking in the M2? Size? Performance?


The performance is actually quite impressive, but the range is limited. Most people move up to get more seats / range.

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 Post subject: Re: Used Aircraft Market (Turbine) August 2019
PostPosted: 27 Aug 2019, 18:18 
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Username Protected wrote:
The answer is it depends on the airplane. If you look at the Mustang - M2 - CJ3+ upgrade path it usually happens quite rapidly. We have three clients that upgraded in the last few months after owning the airplane we originally acquired for them less than two years.

We actually have clients who are buying knowing they’ll upgrade soon, but they need a stair-step for various reasons.

It is true that most “GA” flights are a couple of people... but when you get into turbines, especially jets, that requirement changes rapidly. Even if most of their flights are a few people, they want to be able to haul the load when needed.

You are not abnormal, PC-12 owners upgrade much less often. There’s no where to go, unless you go into a jet. One of the recent upgrades I mentioned was from the PC-12 we bought him to an M2, and I’m sure before long he’ll be in a CJ3+... but it is rare for a Pilatus owner to step down in size and utility to a small jet.

King Air 350 owners don’t upgrade as often either, and when they do it’s usually to an Encore / XLS / Lear 75 or Challenger 300

I'm hot on the CJ3+. Love them.


Owner pilots on CJP love them as well. Pretty close to CJ4 performance with Garmin stuff we’re all used too, and a lot less fuel burn. The 4 has some things going for it too though.
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 Post subject: Re: Used Aircraft Market (Turbine) August 2019
PostPosted: 28 Aug 2019, 00:42 
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TP Owner: "How long is the trip?"
VLJ Owner: "How early do we need to depart?"
Mid Size Owner: "Do we need to stop for fuel going home (west bound)?"
LC Owner: "Will we fit on the ramp? Do you need to drop us and reposition (Europe)?"

:woot: :woot: :woot:


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 Post subject: Re: Used Aircraft Market (Turbine) August 2019
PostPosted: 29 Aug 2019, 17:39 
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It is so much harder to get airplanes worked on, flown, painted, you name it... the service side of our business is all but overwhelmed.


I hate to get political but when humans live in an environment where they don't have to do %#$@ in life.... they don't do %#$@. I think we had about a decade of kids getting worthless degrees in underwater basket weaving and there are no underwater basket weaving jobs.


Fundamental problem with the modern, socialist democracy is that we have divorced effort from sustenance. You can get housed & fed without having to work.

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 Post subject: Re: Used Aircraft Market (Turbine) August 2019
PostPosted: 29 Aug 2019, 17:41 
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Sounds like a recession to me.

I'm experiencing the same in every aspect of life. Service businesses are at capacity. The economy is doing great. Ssshhh, don't tell CNN, it will spoil their narrative.


The talking heads and the establishment want a recession. Won't impact them too badly and they are banking on it so that the current President does not get re-elected.

Don't want to jinx anything, but this is the strongest economy we have seen in 10 years.
No guarantee of what tomorrow brings, but it is best in a long time.


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 Post subject: Re: Used Aircraft Market (Turbine) August 2019
PostPosted: 29 Aug 2019, 17:46 
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Every time I start something like this it (the thread) gets deleted. So

IBTL

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 Post subject: Re: Used Aircraft Market (Turbine) August 2019
PostPosted: 29 Aug 2019, 18:13 
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Fundamental problem with the modern, socialist democracy is that we have divorced effort from sustenance. You can get housed & fed without having to work.

Turn off the electricity and traditional gender roles will return in 3 days. :D


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 Post subject: Re: Used Aircraft Market (Turbine) August 2019
PostPosted: 29 Aug 2019, 18:25 
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Username Protected wrote:
Fundamental problem with the modern, socialist democracy is that we have divorced effort from sustenance. You can get housed & fed without having to work.

Turn off the electricity and traditional gender roles will return in 3 days. :D


I own an off grid hotel in the SW Texas desert near Big Bend National Park.

Zero utilities, small hospital (80) miles away, sheriff may or may not come depending on how busy they are. About as free and wild as things get in West Texas.

It is really interesting to see the behaviors when people stay a few days, especially if they hike the property or park and find some wildlife or encounter difficulty.

KJ

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 Post subject: Re: Used Aircraft Market (Turbine) August 2019
PostPosted: 29 Aug 2019, 18:57 
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Loving this thread


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