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25 Sep 2020, 19:56 [ UTC - 5; DST ]


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 Post subject: 210M with VGs Approach Speed
PostPosted: 25 Jul 2020, 12:39 
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Location: KTKV KBKV
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Helping a couple with their 210M with VGs. What’s a good speed on an approach and then over the numbers with flaps 20? Pulling power in the flare or prior to the flare?

Thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: 210M with VGs Approach Speed
PostPosted: 26 Jul 2020, 00:34 
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80-90 kts with flaps 20

60 over the numbers with full flaps.

Its a heavy yoke, so a little power helps in the flare.

Hope this helps.

Rgs
Patrick


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 Post subject: Re: 210M with VGs Approach Speed
PostPosted: 26 Jul 2020, 10:33 
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Username Protected wrote:
80-90 kts with flaps 20

60 over the numbers with full flaps.

Its a heavy yoke, so a little power helps in the flare.

Hope this helps.

Rgs
Patrick


Thanks Patrick. I appreciate it.

Kirk


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 Post subject: Re: 210M with VGs Approach Speed
PostPosted: 26 Jul 2020, 13:46 
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Username Protected wrote:
80-90 kts with flaps 20

60 over the numbers with full flaps.

Its a heavy yoke, so a little power helps in the flare.

Hope this helps.

Rgs
Patrick


Thanks Patrick. I appreciate it.

Kirk

It's been 20 years since I added VGs to a T210M I owned, so I don't remember the airspeeds before or after VGs. What I do vividly remember is the improvement of control authority after they were added.

Before I added them, I felt like the plane handled sluggishly at slow speeds, especially on final. I felt like it was just barely hanging in the air.

After the VGs were installed, low speed control authority was much better and I felt much more positive control on final.
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 Post subject: Re: 210M with VGs Approach Speed
PostPosted: 26 Jul 2020, 15:30 
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This is easy.

Go do stalls and note the indicated airspeed. Then fly the approach at 1.3X that speed.

Each plane is different, and every pilot should be doing stalls regularly for skill retention as well as to know the approach speeds.

For most pilots, 1.3x VSo will be much slower than they currently fly approaches (and hence, float half way down the runway!).

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 Post subject: Re: 210M with VGs Approach Speed
PostPosted: 11 Aug 2020, 17:07 
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I have a Cessna 210L and have thought about VGs, but not pulled the trigger. I have thought about buying them, putting speed tape on my wings and attaching them to the speed tape and performing low speed maneuvers to see how they feel.

If i can get a 5-10% reduction in stall speed with a 5% or less top end penalty I am all in.

Is doing what i suggest - temp install with speed tape a valid testing option?


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 Post subject: Re: 210M with VGs Approach Speed
PostPosted: 11 Aug 2020, 17:34 
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Go do stalls and note the indicated airspeed. Then fly the approach at 1.3X that speed.

Each plane is different, and every pilot should be doing stalls regularly for skill retention as well as to know the approach speeds.

Dan Grider and the Aviation 101 folks are now pushing for 1.404x

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 Post subject: Re: 210M with VGs Approach Speed
PostPosted: 11 Aug 2020, 19:10 
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Username Protected wrote:
Go do stalls and note the indicated airspeed. Then fly the approach at 1.3X that speed.

Each plane is different, and every pilot should be doing stalls regularly for skill retention as well as to know the approach speeds.

Dan Grider and the Aviation 101 folks are now pushing for 1.404x


Hi Doug -- So Gryder is saying to fly at 1.404Vso on short final? Or is he saying something else about a minimum maneuvering speed?
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 Post subject: Re: 210M with VGs Approach Speed
PostPosted: 12 Aug 2020, 12:24 
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Username Protected wrote:
Go do stalls and note the indicated airspeed. Then fly the approach at 1.3X that speed.

Each plane is different, and every pilot should be doing stalls regularly for skill retention as well as to know the approach speeds.

Dan Grider and the Aviation 101 folks are now pushing for 1.404x


Dan is using that as a minimum maneuvering speed in the pattern NOT a minimum speed on short final or over the fence speed. It seems reasonable to slow up after making your base to final turn and once lined up with the runway as your risk factors have changed.

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 Post subject: Re: 210M with VGs Approach Speed
PostPosted: 12 Aug 2020, 14:38 
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Who's Dan Grider?

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 Post subject: Re: 210M with VGs Approach Speed
PostPosted: 12 Aug 2020, 16:32 
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Who's Dan Grider?



CFI

https://flightchops.com/tag/dan-gryder/

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 Post subject: Re: 210M with VGs Approach Speed
PostPosted: 12 Aug 2020, 16:35 
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Who's Dan Grider?


An alternate version of Dan Gryder. Dan Gryder is a flight instructor and retired airline captain who wants to bring some safety concepts from the airline world to the GA world through improved instruction and especially more relevant biannual flight reviews. He partners with a number of popular you tubers to spread his message.

He often points out that there are a handful of things GA pilots keep doing over and over to kill themselves. One of them is obviously stall/spin while maneuvering near the ground. He came up with a minimum maneuvering speed of 1.404 Vso which I think is overly specific* but I think the general idea has merit and is similar to age old methods like “100 down wind, 90 base, 80 final” except simpler and easier to apply to different aircraft. Something like “Above 1.4 Vso in the pattern, slowing to 1.3 Vso once lined up on final” should provide a sufficient safety margin (and a slower final with less float) on a fairly wide range of GA aircraft.



*if you are good enough hold the airspeed between 1.403 and 1.405 Vso, you are not likely in need of Dan’s help. If 1.404 provides sufficient safety margin but 1.400 doesn’t, you have other issues.


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 Post subject: Re: 210M with VGs Approach Speed
PostPosted: 25 Aug 2020, 00:17 
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Aircraft: Cessna 210H
When I purchased my '68 210H back in 2004, I regularly flew the final leg down to flare at 80mph...sorry, mine is in MPH...not KTS... About 5 years later I learned about and installed the full VG kit.

The first thing I did after the install was to fly up to 3k ft and do stalls/slow flight. I was amazed at how much speed I was able to shed after installing the VG's...I can easily fly my final leg to flare at 60 mph with plenty of elevator authority! I usually fly the final down to flare now between 65 to 70 mph. It's amazing how the VG's changed my landing techniques!

Another device that has tremendously helped me to maintain safe, "stabilized" slower approach speeds, was the installation of my CYA-100 AOA. I'm able to maintain those slow approaches safely without having to "watch" the airspeed indicator!!!

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Best Regards,
Mike Redmon
'68 Cessna 210H


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