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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Skywagon
PostPosted: 31 Jan 2022, 22:51 
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Aircraft: PA18, C120/180/210
Username Protected wrote:
The winds are 10-14 knots and we only landed crosswind. Its raining and just over all nasty.


What’s the consensus on the limit before run out of rudder in the 180? Know that in an early model, around 17-18 knots ran out of rudder and needed a little brake. Seems the 120 will take more xwind without running out of authority.


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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Skywagon
PostPosted: 31 Jan 2022, 23:47 
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Joined: 01/28/13
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Location: Indiana
Aircraft: C195, D17S, M20TN
Which side is the xwind from? Are they using ailerons appropriately on the ground for directional control? Any gusts or steady winds?

Sorry it’s not a “static” question.

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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Skywagon
PostPosted: 01 Feb 2022, 00:41 
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Joined: 05/29/13
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Company: Easy Ice, LLC
Location: Marquette, Michigan; Scottsdale, AZ, Telluride
Aircraft: C510,C185,C310,R66
Username Protected wrote:
Leigh Smith flew down yesterday and proceeded to kick my ass all over the Houston area today. The winds are 10-14 knots and we only landed crosswind. Its raining and just over all nasty. To finish off the day we did 3 landings back where the plane is based at TX42 which is a 35 foot wide asphalt strip. I saw improvement throughout the day only to be humbled with less than graceful arrivals back at home base. I need a drink or ten. Actually, I just need rest and to tattoo AILERON on the inside of my eyelids. Holy %#$@ what day.


Leigh is the man. Welcome to the club.

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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Skywagon
PostPosted: 01 Feb 2022, 08:29 
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Joined: 01/06/08
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Location: Pottstown, PA (KPTW)
Aircraft: 1965 Debonair C33
Username Protected wrote:
Which side is the xwind from? Are they using ailerons appropriately on the ground for directional control? Any gusts or steady winds?

Sorry it’s not a “static” question.


Grass or pavement? Big difference.

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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Skywagon
PostPosted: 01 Feb 2022, 09:12 
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Joined: 11/25/11
Posts: 9168
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Location: KGNF, Grenada, MS
Aircraft: Baron, 180,195,J-3
The 180/185 has a lot more rudder than you should ever use unless there is no other option. The stress put on the gear, wheels, wheel shaft, and tires can and will cause failures. Last spring, I arrived at small airport to drop off a friend. The wind was reported 14, gusting 22 ninety degrees to the runway. The entrance road to the airport ran right out to the runway. I could have safely landed there or not landed at all. The side force rolled the tire over to the point that the wheel pant drug the runway and knocked it askew. I am lucky it did not deflate the tire.

My "personal" limitation due to the stress on the airplane components is a 12 knot crosswind component for the 180 and about 9 for the 195.

The second landing I ever made in a 180 was when I bought the airplane and was ferrying it from Placerville. Reached Page at sunset and a ASOS reported 25 knot wind right down runway 25. I simply could not see anything on approach to 25 with the sun in my eyes. Had to land on 33 with a 90 degree crosswind and almost no light. NOT A PRETTY SIGHT.

Jg

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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Skywagon
PostPosted: 01 Feb 2022, 09:31 
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Joined: 05/11/10
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Location: Indiana
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I run out of ability before I run out of rudder. People say they get more crosswind ability by wheel landing and driving it on fast. That concept is fraught with problems but, in the case of the rudder, the problem is that you have to get the tail on the ground some time, and you can’t plop it down if you’re going faster than stall speed.

As to the rabbit trail question of how much crosswind: 15 knots steady is doable. 10G15 is really hard. 15G20 only if there’s a really, really good reason. Better pilots might add 5 to all of those numbers. Continuing: 8 knots sideways is the perfect wind. Anything marked “variable” is the most dangerous of all.


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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Skywagon
PostPosted: 01 Feb 2022, 18:14 
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Joined: 03/29/13
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Aircraft: PA18, C120/180/210
Username Protected wrote:
Which side is the xwind from? Are they using ailerons appropriately on the ground for directional control? Any gusts or steady winds?

Sorry it’s not a “static” question.


Agree!

Was assuming pilot is proficient and using ailerons, rudder, and brake (if needed, best not to need) appropriately - otherwise the numbers we are throwing around aren’t even in contention.

And presumption was paved runway - grass is much more forgiving even if one should never bake the forgiveness of grass into a decision to land or not.

Generally a knot or two more seems to be doable from the right as power will torque away from the weathervane tendency. Here somebody will find a wrong-way turning example…

Seems like 15-17 is not far off the mark, and of course gusting is worse. As for landing into the sun, not sure I’d take a vicious crosswind over landing blind/glassy water landing/looking out left window. Especially if headwind is large, since plane will almost be stopped once touches down.


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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Skywagon
PostPosted: 02 Feb 2022, 10:55 
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Company: Tupelo Aero, Inc
Location: Pontotoc , MS (22M)
Aircraft: 1959 Twin Beech 18
If you are flying a skywagon you are at least on notch above the “normal” pilot crowd on Aubie’s scale.

A steady 20 knots across is not bad. 25knots across the a large gust factor… land into the wind on a taxi way.

Just keep your head up brain and feet in gear and avoid the stupid list.

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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Skywagon
PostPosted: 02 Feb 2022, 11:35 
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Joined: 12/17/15
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Aircraft: Cessna 180A
Username Protected wrote:
I run out of ability before I run out of rudder. People say they get more crosswind ability by wheel landing and driving it on fast. That concept is fraught with problems but, in the case of the rudder, the problem is that you have to get the tail on the ground some time, and you can’t plop it down if you’re going faster than stall speed.

As to the rabbit trail question of how much crosswind: 15 knots steady is doable. 10G15 is really hard. 15G20 only if there’s a really, really good reason. Better pilots might add 5 to all of those numbers. Continuing: 8 knots sideways is the perfect wind. Anything marked “variable” is the most dangerous of all.


I prefer wheeling it during a crosswind because it is hard to find non gusty conditions on most X wind days. I feel I have better control getting the airplane on the mains first. I do use a faster approach speed with the addition of power. I have not had a problem with 40 degrees of flaps. The wheel landing gives me a safer go around option. As I am slowing down after the touch down on the mains I am careful to slowly set the tail down neutralizing the rudder forces while maintaining aileron control for the wind. This helps prevent shimmy. I fly into windy areas all year round including the Columbia River Gorge. I believe it just takes practice and proficiency to land the Skywagon in stiff gusty crosswinds. How much wind is too much ? I think that is a personal choice. Recently landed my 180 at KMMV on 22 with the wind being 140@20G27. Runway 17 was an option but I wanted to see if the wagon could handle this much wind. I did not run out of rudder authority. I did use 30 degrees of flaps in case I needed to go around. There is no major rocket science here - keep the longitudinal axis straight and dance appropriately with rudder, aileron, elevator and power. The ride isn't over until the airplane is tied down or in the hangar and it is a good idea to get very proficient taxiing these airplanes in wind.

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1958 C180A O520


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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Skywagon
PostPosted: 03 Feb 2022, 09:52 
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My C180 and I were based at Jeffco Airport on the northwest side of Denver for 10 years, and I got fairly proficient at crosswind landings. I also had a number of times where I had to go up to Boulder Muni to land and wait out the wind.

All this wind bragging needs to be taken with a grain of salt. The AWOS/ASOS wind sensor is set on a tower at 30 feet agl. We all know how the wind dies off as we get to the 2 feet agl level on landing. There is no formula for that, just feel it, pay attention to how much rudder is required to keep the airplane lined up, and make your decision. Practice and good instruction are also important.

John


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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Skywagon
PostPosted: 03 Feb 2022, 10:28 
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Joined: 11/25/11
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Location: KGNF, Grenada, MS
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Do not underestimate the ability of crosswind stresses to damage you airplane.

It matters little that you got down "in one piece".

Jg

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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Skywagon
PostPosted: 05 Feb 2022, 17:58 
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I am a lot braver on a wide grass runway where the Skywagon can slide across the runway while landing with a big crosswind.


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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Skywagon
PostPosted: 05 Feb 2022, 21:42 
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Joined: 08/31/17
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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Skywagon
PostPosted: 31 May 2022, 04:53 
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To celebrate 70 years of the 180/185 family,
a fly in was organised for the past weekend. Great turn out for such a small country!

https://youtu.be/gNMsYflA9QQ


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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Skywagon
PostPosted: 01 Jun 2022, 14:47 
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Location: CMB7, Ottawa, Canada
Aircraft: TBM - C185 - T206
Usually on final if I can keep it straight with the runway without running out of rudder I will go ahead and land. On a wide runway you can cheat and land on an angle on the runway to help with the wind.
On wheels a wheel landing will help and amphibs can take a lot of crosswind as your so high that you can land on 1 float to keep it straight on the runway.






Username Protected wrote:
The winds are 10-14 knots and we only landed crosswind. Its raining and just over all nasty.


What’s the consensus on the limit before run out of rudder in the 180? Know that in an early model, around 17-18 knots ran out of rudder and needed a little brake. Seems the 120 will take more xwind without running out of authority.

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Former Baron 58 owner.
Pistons engines are for tractors.

Marc Bourdon


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