I was playing around with a weight/balance calculator (don't judge .. everyone who's cool does this).

I cannot figure out how to load a SR-22G3 Turbo with four humans and fuel. With a 190 lb pilot, three 170 lbs friends and no bags, you can carry 30 gallons of fuel. I understand about tradeoffs, but if you want to go 300 miles you are taking one friend, not three.

I wonder how many Cirrus pilots "cheat just a little".

FIFY

I wonder how many pilots "cheat just a little".

They are not too hard to find. Usually they end up in an NTSB file at some point.

Sounds like you picked the wrong plane for your mission. Some of those turbo / AC equipped planes have a smaller useful load. Our 2006 G2 hauls me, my wife and our two adult girls 500 plus miles to visit Grandma. I fill the tanks to max gross weight which leaves me landing with as much fuel as possible, usually around 1 hour. No need to cheat.

Nate Tinkle just bought a clean wing, naturally aspirated model which will have a higher gross weight than the one you are calculating off. The one we have has TKS so a bit of a weight penalty there. Or you can get a G5 model that has a 200 lb increase in gross weight.

Heck, that's nothing. I knew this fat ass pilot who had a fat ass wife, and a Mooney Acclaim with A/C and FIKI. His wife was/is so big, she had to sit in the back seat and he had to grease the door frame and strip her naked to get her in and out. I know you think I'm exaggerating, but I'm not.

OK, he didn't grease the door frame.

He thought nothing of filling that Mooney to the rims, loading it up with baggage (including the wife), and heading for New Jersey non-stop. Owning a Bravo at the time, I was quite familiar with the Bravo/Acclaim w & b numbers. He was easily six hundred pounds over gross on every flight.

I watched him take off from KGNF one time, on a clear day, with the bag and baggage on board. When he went out of sight, the Acclaim was barely more than 300' above the tree line.

Jg

Years ago, at CLL, I watched a guy load a Bellanca Viking with himself, another man, two wives in the back seats, kids in the ladies' laps, baggage area full almost to the headliner, grocery bags full of clothes were then wedged in and around the ladies' feet and legs. The tires were half flat from the weight, and they looked like the truck in the opening scenes from the Beverly Hillbillies. It took about 1500 rpm just to get that mass to taxi. They took off south, used about 2/3 of the 7000' runway to get airborne, flew some 5 miles straight out to gain enough speed and altitude to turn around northbound, and I could still just about read the N number when they passed the field again, engine howling.

No need to cheat with a B55. With 1627 useful on our trip to Spanish Wells had 3 adults, 2 children, bags for a week, snorkel gear, fishing gear, lots of food, and 5+ hours of fuel. It's the family minivan!

I have a 2007 Avidyne G3 TN SR22 with TKS and A/C. That's about as limited as it gets!

90+% of my missions are solo, so no issues. Me plus another adult guy, no problem (400 lbs of humans plus a little baggage), I'm good with 80 gallons of fuel, which is 4 hours plus a reserve. Add a female/child/young adult in the back seat and you're at about tabs fuel (3 hours). Once you go over that, you are pretty limited. It's really not a 4-person airplane except for short flights as you have observed.

I have only had 3 people in my airplane on one occasion and it was a short mission of <200 miles, so no issues on that flight either.

If you don't have it already, download the free app CirrusProFlite from the Apple App Store - easy to set up your airplane and it does a terrific job for W&B (and more).

If your mission routinely calls for cross country trips with 3 or more adults, especially men, the G5 (or a different airplane entirely as noted above) is a much better solution. My mission doesn't so I was fine with the limited useful load of the G3.

Another reason (if you even need another reason) to avoid flying over MGW in a G3 is the chute. I don't think the chute is designed to handle the extra 200# and if you had to pull CAPS right after a 3600# departure, I think you'd hit with a fair amount of additional force. Not recommended.

In the light sport world, in contrast, my Tecnam LSA is certified by EASA and other governmental airworthiness organizations at 1480# but is limited by rule to 1320# in the US. The LSA weight limit is one of the most violated FARs around … hence the FAAs willingness to revisit the limitation. Having said that, there's a big difference between a MGW calculated based on airframe-specific tests for a certified aircraft and an arbitrary limit to which a manufacturer chooses to adhere to avoid certification costs unrelated to the airframe itself… and I would not fly over MGW in my Cirrus. I know pilots routinely do so in all kinds of airplanes, but I just don't get it...

In truth, most, especially if they fly any of the “older” aircraft like the a C182 with a 2550 gross, or a PA11 that has a whopping 400# UL. Twins are no better, a lot of legacy twins are 2-seaters when full of gas, at least on paper.

The best is my little Mooney, 670empty, 850 gross... Guess people were smaller back then, but at 40 mpg I suppose an “average” FAA pilot would get about 50 miles...

Jeff

Get the free Bonanza performance app from POHPerformance and see if a TN/TKS A36 will fit your needs. It seems to be the solution to that problem. As the old saying goes, if you need 4 seats buy 6.

You can take 4 people and a little luggage in an S35, V35 or V35B if it doesn't have too much heavy added equipment. I'm sure that's true for Cirrus also. The V-tails that have a turbonormalizer are even better, with a much more favorable CG envelope even if heavy.

But once you put a turbo AND TKS on a V-tail, you run into similar problems as you see on the Cirrus.

Perhaps a bit of thread creep with this question, but it will stay on topic somewhat.
I remember reading once about CG testing in some model or the other which involved dead weight being placed in various places. They went out and flew the plane and from those experiences came up with at least in part the numbers we see and use today for CG calculations. So, how did (do) they come up with the maximum weight limits? Everyone has heard the line "If you can close the door on it, it will fly", and maybe even explored the edge of that envelope themselves on occasion.

For light planes, it is generally limited by required climb performance in the certification standards. Basically, find the weight where it just meets the rules, that's the certified max weight.

In some cases, it can be limited by the airframe itself (structure, tires, etc).

Mike C.

For light planes, it is generally limited by required climb performance in the certification standards. Basically, find the weight where it just meets the rules, that's the certified max weight.

In some cases, it can be limited by the airframe itself (structure, tires, etc).

Mike C.

I had a 22TN with a/c and TKS; it was a challenge.

I've got nothing to add other than to reiterate what has already been said - Cirrus ProFlite is a great program to play with W&B. But it also gives performance numbers, so you might play with your airports you have in mind - you might find you don't need a TN (or T). The Cirrus has an engine similar to the... Atlantic Aero conversion, I believe. Still, it's no TN.

I'd bought the TN w/ TKS because that's what most were. This time, I looked for exactly what I wanted/needed - less mx and more UL with the clean wing n/a; going without a/c was not an option.

That may not be an option for you, but I can load your scenario, and throw in another 170 lb friend to boot, and make it work.

If you're thinking about a Cirrus, it's well worth the $65 membership to COPA. Good luck - glad to answer any questions you have.

Randy,

The G3 with TKS / Turbo is definitely not a (4) adults and bags and go somewhere bird. Neither are many other (4) seat a/c as has been mentioned here. This was the reason I went to the G5. Do some guys cheat on the GW limitations on the G3? I'm sure of it. The G5 has the same aerodynamic wing and engine, so takeoff performance is roughly the same at the same weights. However, there are some real structural differences that give the G5 the added 200# of GW capability including beefed up landing gear, beefed up wing spar, larger capacity chute, higher deflection flaps, beefed up flap structure (which also provides 150kt first notch flaps vs. 119 kt).

So, although T/O performance for a G3 / G5 wouldn't be much different at the same weight, the G3 structure and chute are not designed / certified to the higher GW.

For some, the cost delta to the G5 is just too much, so if it's financially out of reach for you, I certainly understand. However to be able to legally take (4) adults, bags and go somewhere AND have a/c, turbo, TKS, O2, etc makes the G5 a very, very capable bird.