28 Mar 2024, 09:58 [ UTC - 5; DST ]
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Post subject: Re: Cessna Denali - First Impressions Posted: 24 May 2019, 08:48 |
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Joined: 05/23/13 Posts: 6715 Post Likes: +7248 Company: Jet Acquisitions Location: Franklin, TN 615-739-9091 chip@jetacq.com
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Username Protected wrote: Aren't those the exact PC 12 performance numbers?
That’s what I’ve never understood about the Denali. Is 15% better fuel economy enough differentiation? I don’t think so. I hope Cessna is sandbagging. It doesn’t make sense that nearly 30 year later technology yields no better performance.
They’re either sandbagging or incompetent. To come out with a state of the art airplane with such lackluster performance would be a waste of time.
We’ll see what reality reveals.
_________________ It’s a brave new world, one where most have forgotten the old ways.
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Post subject: Re: Cessna Denali - First Impressions Posted: 24 May 2019, 09:18 |
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Joined: 11/08/13 Posts: 1913 Post Likes: +1167 Location: KCRQ
Aircraft: Breeezy, 182,601P
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The avionics lower operating costs and Cessna's support network, might be enough. all else equal.
If your upgrading from a high end cirrus, one of the Piper SETP etc.. that already has Garmin avionics, learning the Honeywell system, however good it is, is an issue.
As for operating costs, for a low utilization owner flown aircraft cessna could do a lot to eliminate calendar based maintance, reduce database subscription costs etc...
As for performance I'd expect denali/pc-12 to be similar There is a laws of physics aspect to this as well....
A used KA300 with the upcoming blackhawk-67 STC might be similar capx for a lot more performance....
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Post subject: Re: Cessna Denali - First Impressions Posted: 24 May 2019, 09:19 |
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Joined: 01/16/11 Posts: 11105 Post Likes: +7090 Location: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Aircraft: PC12NG, G3Tat
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Username Protected wrote: They’re either sandbagging or incompetent. To come out with a state of the art airplane with such lackluster performance would be a waste of time.
We’ll see what reality reveals. I don't care much for the airplane frankly. What I am excited about is the engine. If it's actually 20% more efficient then the range will be awesome. Add another 300-400 miles and that airplane has some serious legs. Need to get over that 300knot cruise speed bump.
_________________ ---Rusty Shoe Keeper---
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Post subject: Re: Cessna Denali - First Impressions Posted: 24 May 2019, 10:39 |
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Joined: 08/23/10 Posts: 843 Post Likes: +660
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Username Protected wrote: There is a laws of physics aspect to this as well... True, but the PC12 doesn't strike me as a real clean/aerodynamic airframe. I'd assume there is a fair amount of improvement that modern computer modeling could achieve. Plus the PT6 is not a super efficient engine.
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Post subject: Re: Cessna Denali - First Impressions Posted: 24 May 2019, 18:56 |
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Joined: 06/02/15 Posts: 2688 Post Likes: +1687 Location: Fresno, CA (KFAT)
Aircraft: T210M
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Username Protected wrote: 15% improvement in fuel burn while going faster is a major feat, if they can pull it off. Even for a private operator flying only 200 hrs /yr that's not an insignificant savings... +1 Every time I get the opportunity to provide feedback to Daher about improvements I bring up better fuel specifics. With 281 gals useful it is my practice to land with no less than 50 gal. If I had a 20% improvement it is like carrying 46 extra gallons! Or an extra 225 nm of range. This would benefit the newer TBM models even more that have higher TAS on the same fuel burn.
_________________ Tom DeWitt Previous: TBM850/T210M/C182P APS 2004
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Post subject: Re: Cessna Denali - First Impressions Posted: 24 May 2019, 19:27 |
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Joined: 02/09/09 Posts: 5547 Post Likes: +2503 Location: Owosso, MI (KRNP)
Aircraft: 1969 Bonanza V35A
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Username Protected wrote: They’re either sandbagging or incompetent. To come out with a state of the art airplane with such lackluster performance would be a waste of time.
We’ll see what reality reveals. I don't care much for the airplane frankly. What I am excited about is the engine. If it's actually 20% more efficient then the range will be awesome. Add another 300-400 miles and that airplane has some serious legs. Need to get over that 300knot cruise speed bump.
Cessna did that 40 years ago..... The called it a Conquest II.... Then then killed it as it was beating up on the Citation sales...
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Post subject: Re: Cessna Denali - First Impressions Posted: 24 May 2019, 20:46 |
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Joined: 01/16/11 Posts: 11105 Post Likes: +7090 Location: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Aircraft: PC12NG, G3Tat
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Username Protected wrote: Cessna did that 40 years ago..... The called it a Conquest II.... Then then killed it as it was beating up on the Citation sales... Have a friend that drives round in circles that loves his. It's still a ton smaller than the PC12 but it shoulda been higher up on my list. The issue is that they don't make em no more..........so what I'm hearing you saying is that Cessna ain't about producing a better airplane, they're about producing better bottom lines for their corporation.........not something I can argue against.
_________________ ---Rusty Shoe Keeper---
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Post subject: Re: Cessna Denali - First Impressions Posted: 29 May 2019, 09:47 |
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Joined: 07/23/09 Posts: 1067 Post Likes: +560 Location: KSJT
Aircraft: PC-24 Citabria 7GCBC
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Pilatus President Oscar Schwenk says big changes are coming to the PC12 in response to Textron; competition is good! Article is in German https://www.aerotelegraph.com/interview ... im-oktoberTranslated section related to the PC12 Quote: We owe Textron an answer.
But first they want to improve the PC-12, also in response to the Cessna Denali of Textron.
What is planned exactly? We have updated the PC-12 constantly. But it's true: We owe Textron a copy of the PC-12 build an answer. We will have this answer.
What will she look like? It will be a major upgrade to the Pilatus PC-12. We expect to present details at the NBAA show in October in Las Vegas.
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Post subject: Re: Cessna Denali - First Impressions Posted: 16 Aug 2019, 15:57 |
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Joined: 07/19/18 Posts: 368 Post Likes: +154
Aircraft: On the hunt...
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Username Protected wrote: https://www.cnbc.com/2019/08/15/ge-shares-drop-after-madoff-whistleblower-harry-markopolos-raises-red-flags-on-its-accounting.html
I hope this doesn’t kill the Denali. Where was this guy when Jack Welch was around? Welch famously forced his year end results to come out to the penny to match his annual projection at the beginning of the year! Repeatedly. Talk about hiding in plain sight. When your businesses are as diverse as GE once was you can juggle numbers to force balance. Not coming out even? Add/subtract more IR&D. Change the dividend etc ad infinitum. Height of arrogance.
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Post subject: Re: Cessna Denali - First Impressions Posted: 18 Aug 2019, 11:40 |
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Joined: 05/30/17 Posts: 198 Post Likes: +159
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If GE’s new turboprop engines can really deliver the same HP with a 15-20% savings in fuel burn, while having FADEC/engine protection and a higher TBO, that could revolutionize the single and twin turboprop market. It will surely put a lot of pressure on Pratt & Whitney, because they will have to respond or you will see a lot of owners switching to GE engines at overhaul. I wish them success in that endeavor.
I spent time with the Denali people at OSH - I found their team to be quite friendly (of course, I told them I was already flying an SETP). I thought the cabin and cockpit looked great. But then, the PC12 cabin looks great - I can’t comment on Honeywell Apex necessarily but I think a competent pilot can learn any modern avionics system.
We will see what happens to GE and the Denali but a better turboprop engine would be good for aviation.
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Post subject: Re: Cessna Denali - First Impressions Posted: 18 Aug 2019, 14:34 |
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Joined: 05/23/08 Posts: 6059 Post Likes: +702 Location: CMB7, Ottawa, Canada
Aircraft: TBM - C185 - T206
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Pratt will respond with their new engine. Is a new version of the Pilatus PC-12 single-engine turboprop in the works? It appears so. On July 29, the Swiss Aircraft Register listed a Pilatus PC-12/47E, commonly called the PC-12 NG, as an experimental aircraft. This version appears to have a new engine, a Pratt & Whitney PT6E-67XP and an upgraded Hartzell Propeller, the HC-E5A-31A/NC10245B. Experts and analysts have been expecting Pilatus to upgrade the PC-12, a passenger and cargo aircraft, in part in response to Textron Aviation’s new Cessna Denali single-engine turboprop. Textron Aviation is planning for first flight of the Denali later in 2019 with initial customer deliveries in 2020. A Pilatus spokesperson in Switzerland declined to comment. Pratt & Whitney Canada and Hartzell Propeller referred questions to Pilatus. “All we can say is that we always have experimental aircraft of all types of our aircraft registered as we continuously develop them further,” a Pilatus spokeperson said. “Whether the new features will be introduced or not depends on the test results.” An upgraded PC-12 would not be a surprise, said Rolland Vincent, an aviation consultant with Rolland Vincent Associates. “I’m sure they’re working on it,” Vincent said, adding that he had no specific knowledge of the case. However, Pilatus will respond to the Cessna Denali,” Vincent said. “The game is afoot.” Vincent has added an upgraded PC-12 to his delivery forecasts. Pilatus has upgraded the PC-12 regularly about every eight years. “They’re due for another one,” Vincent said. Waiting seven-to-ten years between upgrades is good business. “Then customers are ready for the next generation and you haven’t annoyed them by lowering their residual values,” Vincent said. Pilatus has been manufacturing the pressurized PC-12 since 1991. The company delivered 80 PC-12 aircraft in 2018, down from 85 in 2017. It delivered 12 in the first quarter of 2019. Username Protected wrote: If GE’s new turboprop engines can really deliver the same HP with a 15-20% savings in fuel burn, while having FADEC/engine protection and a higher TBO, that could revolutionize the single and twin turboprop market. It will surely put a lot of pressure on Pratt & Whitney, because they will have to respond or you will see a lot of owners switching to GE engines at overhaul. I wish them success in that endeavor.
I spent time with the Denali people at OSH - I found their team to be quite friendly (of course, I told them I was already flying an SETP). I thought the cabin and cockpit looked great. But then, the PC12 cabin looks great - I can’t comment on Honeywell Apex necessarily but I think a competent pilot can learn any modern avionics system.
We will see what happens to GE and the Denali but a better turboprop engine would be good for aviation.
_________________ Former Baron 58 owner. Pistons engines are for tractors.
Marc Bourdon
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Post subject: Re: Cessna Denali - First Impressions Posted: 23 Oct 2019, 12:58 |
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Joined: 03/01/17 Posts: 1052 Post Likes: +615 Location: CA
Aircraft: V35, C150
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I saw that too.
I am rooting for Cessna because I want to see what they come up with and because I like seeing more airplanes in the market.
We know production and certification delays happen all the time, but the timing sure makes me wonder if Cessna saw what Pilatus announced this week and it cut into the Denali’s advantages a little too much.
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