28 Mar 2024, 17:55 [ UTC - 5; DST ]
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Post subject: Re: Cessna Denali - First Impressions Posted: 17 Mar 2019, 16:36 |
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Joined: 01/29/08 Posts: 26431 Post Likes: +13064 Location: Walterboro, SC. KRBW
Aircraft: PC12NG
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Username Protected wrote: If the Denali is the CJ of the turboprop world, they’ll really put the hurt on the competition... just like they did in the jet world. How far back are you talking? It's 2019 now.
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Post subject: Re: Cessna Denali - First Impressions Posted: 17 Mar 2019, 16:59 |
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Joined: 12/03/14 Posts: 19252 Post Likes: +23613 Company: Ciholas, Inc Location: KEHR
Aircraft: C560V
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Username Protected wrote: - much lower cabin altitude - FADEC - G3000 - No HSI - Longer TBO - slightly less money - slightly faster - Lower fuel burn - Tremendous support network - Bigger cargo door Mike C.
_________________ Email mikec (at) ciholas.com
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Post subject: Re: Cessna Denali - First Impressions Posted: 17 Mar 2019, 21:39 |
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Joined: 07/04/11 Posts: 1712 Post Likes: +242 Company: W. John Gadd, Esq. Location: Florida
Aircraft: C55 Baron
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Username Protected wrote: - much lower cabin altitude - FADEC - G3000 - No HSI - Longer TBO - slightly less money - slightly faster - Lower fuel burn - Tremendous support network - Bigger cargo door Mike C.
Then I guess it all comes down to whether the new power plant delivers. And it will probably take a few years to sort that out. Until such time, Pliatus reign likely to continue.
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Post subject: Re: Cessna Denali - First Impressions Posted: 17 Mar 2019, 22:22 |
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Joined: 01/16/11 Posts: 11105 Post Likes: +7090 Location: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Aircraft: PC12NG, G3Tat
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Username Protected wrote: - much lower cabin altitude - FADEC - G3000 - No HSI - Longer TBO - slightly less money - slightly faster - Lower fuel burn - Tremendous support network - Bigger cargo door Mike C.
Textron at the wheel and not a privately held company.......I'll go with privately held everytime.......all the above is vaporware until it actually flies.....
_________________ ---Rusty Shoe Keeper---
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Post subject: Re: Cessna Denali - First Impressions Posted: 17 Mar 2019, 22:24 |
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Joined: 01/16/11 Posts: 11105 Post Likes: +7090 Location: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Aircraft: PC12NG, G3Tat
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Username Protected wrote: If the Denali is the CJ of the turboprop world, they’ll really put the hurt on the competition... just like they did in the jet world. Is the PC24 putting a hurt on any of the Textron business?
_________________ ---Rusty Shoe Keeper---
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Post subject: Re: Cessna Denali - First Impressions Posted: 17 Mar 2019, 22:41 |
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Joined: 05/23/13 Posts: 6717 Post Likes: +7255 Company: Jet Acquisitions Location: Franklin, TN 615-739-9091 chip@jetacq.com
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Username Protected wrote: If the Denali is the CJ of the turboprop world, they’ll really put the hurt on the competition... just like they did in the jet world. Is the PC24 putting a hurt on any of the Textron business?
Absolutely. It’s probably going to be hard to gauge, I know they’re losing CJ3+ and CJ4 buyers, but I think it cuts deeper than that.
_________________ It’s a brave new world, one where most have forgotten the old ways.
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Post subject: Re: Cessna Denali - First Impressions Posted: 18 Mar 2019, 07:53 |
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Joined: 05/23/13 Posts: 6717 Post Likes: +7255 Company: Jet Acquisitions Location: Franklin, TN 615-739-9091 chip@jetacq.com
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Username Protected wrote: If the Denali is the CJ of the turboprop world, they’ll really put the hurt on the competition... just like they did in the jet world. How far back are you talking? It's 2019 now.
The reason everyone thinks a jet should be single pilot... is Cessna. Before the 500 series everyone just accepted two pilot jets... it was one reason why jets were a big step up from a turboprop. By the way, back then they were all “Learjets” regardless of who built them. LOL
The reason everyone thinks legacy jets are expensive to maintain is Cessna. The 500, 550’s and 560’s were more economical than their competition ... but not by a lot.
That all changed in the 90’s, when Cessna developed the Citation Jet it changed the light jet world. The CJ series are so simple, so easy to work on, so economical that they became the standard.
Sure, there’s some other good options now... but the CJ was the gamechanger.
Cessna knows how to dominate a market, if you look a CJ3+ or a Phenom 300 everything else seems antiquated. If the Denali looks like a CJ3+ with a big fan on the front and a cargo door... it will be a game changer.
_________________ It’s a brave new world, one where most have forgotten the old ways.
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Post subject: Re: Cessna Denali - First Impressions Posted: 18 Mar 2019, 07:57 |
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Joined: 05/23/13 Posts: 6717 Post Likes: +7255 Company: Jet Acquisitions Location: Franklin, TN 615-739-9091 chip@jetacq.com
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Username Protected wrote: How far back are you talking? It's 2019 now. The reason everyone thinks a jet should be single pilot... is Cessna. Before the 500 series everyone just accepted two pilot jets... it was one reason why jets were a big step up from a turboprop. By the way, back then they were all “Learjets” regardless of who built them. LOL The reason everyone thinks legacy jets are expensive to maintain is Cessna. The 500, 550’s and 560’s were more economical than their competition ... but not by a lot. That all changed in the 90’s, when Cessna developed the Citation Jet it changed the light jet world. The CJ series are so simple, so easy to work on, so economical that they became the standard. Sure, there’s some other good options now... but the CJ was the gamechanger. Cessna knows how to dominate a market, if you look a CJ3+ everything designed prior to it seems antiquated. If the Denali looks like a CJ3+ with a big fan on the front and a cargo door... it will be a game changer.
_________________ It’s a brave new world, one where most have forgotten the old ways.
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Post subject: Re: Cessna Denali - First Impressions Posted: 18 Mar 2019, 08:48 |
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Joined: 01/29/08 Posts: 26431 Post Likes: +13064 Location: Walterboro, SC. KRBW
Aircraft: PC12NG
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Username Protected wrote: Cessna knows how to dominate a market, if you look a CJ3+ or a Phenom 300 everything else seems antiquated. If the Denali looks like a CJ3+ with a big fan on the front and a cargo door... it will be a game changer. Cessna is not dominating the market right now and hasn't for several years. Embraer, Cirrus, Honda, Pilatus, etc. have all entered Cessna's space. Market domination means nobody is coming in...... everyone has come in. The CJ3+ is antiquated compare to the Phenom 300 but it's also a lot less expensive. I'm shopping both right now. The Denali's "big fan up front and cargo door" has been around with Pilatus since 1994. Pilatus "changed the game" 25 years ago. This is why I wrote "it's 2019".... I'm hopeful Cessna has an "Ace up it's sleeve" and is going to whip out some major improvements over what they're already advertising with the Denali. We shall see. Penman's comments (and mine) about "Privately Held Company" are spot in.. It is major battle for a large public company with "groupthink and bureaucracy" to complete with a privately held company with tons of money.
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Post subject: Re: Cessna Denali - First Impressions Posted: 18 Mar 2019, 09:05 |
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Joined: 12/30/15 Posts: 714 Post Likes: +740 Location: NH; KLEB
Aircraft: M2, erstwhile G58
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Username Protected wrote: Is the PC24 putting a hurt on any of the Textron business?
Absolutely. It’s probably going to be hard to gauge, I know they’re losing CJ3+ and CJ4 buyers, but I think it cuts deeper than that.
Unless a new product grows primary demand in a given market, it has to steal share from existing players. Is the Pilatus jet bringing buyers into the market who would otherwise not play?
When looking at Beech/Cessna/Textron vs the competitors who are very successful in a given segment, those competitors are out-innovating Beech/Cessna/Textron in both step-change and incremental ways. But those competitors are also concentrating their resources on a more limited number of aircraft models. Is Beech/Cessna /Textron breadth of the product line is working against them vis more focused competitors?
A broad product line certainly presents the opportunity to appeal to different price points and mission profiles. It also has the potential to hinder innovation in an engineering and regulatory intensive endeavor like aerospace. Need lots more $$ and more engineering resources. Wonder where the the right balance exists between breadth of product line and willingness/ability to innovate more quickly?
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Post subject: Re: Cessna Denali - First Impressions Posted: 18 Mar 2019, 09:16 |
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Joined: 01/29/08 Posts: 26431 Post Likes: +13064 Location: Walterboro, SC. KRBW
Aircraft: PC12NG
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Username Protected wrote: Wonder where the the right balance exists between breadth of product line and willingness/ability to innovate more quickly? The entire single pilot GA market could be serviced by just Cirrus and Pilatus. SR20 SR22 SF50 PC12 PC24 That's some serious market focus.
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Post subject: Re: Cessna Denali - First Impressions Posted: 18 Mar 2019, 10:44 |
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Joined: 12/30/15 Posts: 714 Post Likes: +740 Location: NH; KLEB
Aircraft: M2, erstwhile G58
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Would gently suggest a more granular breakdown. The Textron #s include some big boys as do the Dassault, Embraer and Gulfstream #s
Perhaps also limit to single pilot....
Textron in total leading the pack with 100 units. Spread across three platforms.
Next is Embraer at 64 units across two platforms.
Then, Cirrus SF50 at 63 units, but not sure really comparable to other single pilot jets.
Honda coming in third at 37 units on one platform.
Pilatus PC-24 at 18 units.
Part of the fewer Pilatus units is likely due to that it is at top of price point for this segment. To put a finer point on it...
M2 Type category Cessna M2; 34 Embraer Phenom 100EV; 11 Honda Jet; 37
Surprising to me that Honda Jet is outselling the Phenom 100EV, by over 4:1 Also outselling M2 by a whisker.
CJ3+ kind of a tweener bigger more capable than M2 class, not as capable as CJ4 class CJ3+; 37
Cessna CJ4; 29 Embraer 300; 53 Pilatus PC-24; 18
Embraer 300 selling well in top category. Although there is probably some argument for lumping CJ3+ and CJ4 #s together vs Embraer. But still strong numbers for Phenom 300. Interesting that the Phenom 300 appears to be selling much more strongly in its category than the Phenom 100EV.
Last edited on 18 Mar 2019, 11:41, edited 2 times in total.
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Post subject: Re: Cessna Denali - First Impressions Posted: 18 Mar 2019, 10:53 |
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Joined: 08/23/10 Posts: 843 Post Likes: +660
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Only 18 PC12's? Is that right? If that's the size of the market I don't see why Cessna would bother with the Denali.
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Post subject: Re: Cessna Denali - First Impressions Posted: 18 Mar 2019, 10:58 |
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Joined: 08/23/10 Posts: 843 Post Likes: +660
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Just looked it up, per an October 2018 press release, Pilatus was expecting 80 PC12 deliveries in 2018 and had just delivered the 1600th unit. Pretty dang successful.
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