banner
banner

28 Mar 2024, 17:55 [ UTC - 5; DST ]


Concorde Battery (banner)



Reply to topic  [ 336 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15 ... 23  Next
Username Protected Message
 Post subject: Re: Cessna Denali - First Impressions
PostPosted: 17 Mar 2019, 16:36 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 01/29/08
Posts: 26431
Post Likes: +13064
Location: Walterboro, SC. KRBW
Aircraft: PC12NG
Username Protected wrote:
If the Denali is the CJ of the turboprop world, they’ll really put the hurt on the competition... just like they did in the jet world.

How far back are you talking? It's 2019 now.


Top

 Post subject: Re: Cessna Denali - First Impressions
PostPosted: 17 Mar 2019, 16:59 
Offline


 WWW  Profile




Joined: 12/03/14
Posts: 19252
Post Likes: +23613
Company: Ciholas, Inc
Location: KEHR
Aircraft: C560V
Username Protected wrote:
- much lower cabin altitude
- FADEC
- G3000
- No HSI
- Longer TBO
- slightly less money
- slightly faster

- Lower fuel burn
- Tremendous support network
- Bigger cargo door

Mike C.

_________________
Email mikec (at) ciholas.com


Top

 Post subject: Re: Cessna Denali - First Impressions
PostPosted: 17 Mar 2019, 21:39 
Offline


 WWW  Profile




Joined: 07/04/11
Posts: 1712
Post Likes: +242
Company: W. John Gadd, Esq.
Location: Florida
Aircraft: C55 Baron
Username Protected wrote:
- much lower cabin altitude
- FADEC
- G3000
- No HSI
- Longer TBO
- slightly less money
- slightly faster

- Lower fuel burn
- Tremendous support network
- Bigger cargo door

Mike C.



Then I guess it all comes down to whether the new power plant delivers. And it will probably take a few years to sort that out. Until such time, Pliatus reign likely to continue.

Top

 Post subject: Re: Cessna Denali - First Impressions
PostPosted: 17 Mar 2019, 22:22 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 01/16/11
Posts: 11105
Post Likes: +7090
Location: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Aircraft: PC12NG, G3Tat
Username Protected wrote:
- much lower cabin altitude
- FADEC
- G3000
- No HSI
- Longer TBO
- slightly less money
- slightly faster

- Lower fuel burn
- Tremendous support network
- Bigger cargo door

Mike C.


Textron at the wheel and not a privately held company.......I'll go with privately held everytime.......all the above is vaporware until it actually flies.....
_________________
---Rusty Shoe Keeper---


Top

 Post subject: Re: Cessna Denali - First Impressions
PostPosted: 17 Mar 2019, 22:24 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 01/16/11
Posts: 11105
Post Likes: +7090
Location: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Aircraft: PC12NG, G3Tat
Username Protected wrote:
If the Denali is the CJ of the turboprop world, they’ll really put the hurt on the competition... just like they did in the jet world.


Is the PC24 putting a hurt on any of the Textron business?

_________________
---Rusty Shoe Keeper---


Top

 Post subject: Re: Cessna Denali - First Impressions
PostPosted: 17 Mar 2019, 22:41 
Offline



 WWW  Profile




Joined: 05/23/13
Posts: 6717
Post Likes: +7255
Company: Jet Acquisitions
Location: Franklin, TN 615-739-9091 chip@jetacq.com
Username Protected wrote:
If the Denali is the CJ of the turboprop world, they’ll really put the hurt on the competition... just like they did in the jet world.


Is the PC24 putting a hurt on any of the Textron business?


Absolutely. It’s probably going to be hard to gauge, I know they’re losing CJ3+ and CJ4 buyers, but I think it cuts deeper than that.
_________________
It’s a brave new world, one where most have forgotten the old ways.


Top

 Post subject: Re: Cessna Denali - First Impressions
PostPosted: 18 Mar 2019, 07:53 
Offline



 WWW  Profile




Joined: 05/23/13
Posts: 6717
Post Likes: +7255
Company: Jet Acquisitions
Location: Franklin, TN 615-739-9091 chip@jetacq.com
Username Protected wrote:
If the Denali is the CJ of the turboprop world, they’ll really put the hurt on the competition... just like they did in the jet world.

How far back are you talking? It's 2019 now.


The reason everyone thinks a jet should be single pilot... is Cessna. Before the 500 series everyone just accepted two pilot jets... it was one reason why jets were a big step up from a turboprop. By the way, back then they were all “Learjets” regardless of who built them. LOL

The reason everyone thinks legacy jets are expensive to maintain is Cessna. The 500, 550’s and 560’s were more economical than their competition ... but not by a lot.

That all changed in the 90’s, when Cessna developed the Citation Jet it changed the light jet world. The CJ series are so simple, so easy to work on, so economical that they became the standard.

Sure, there’s some other good options now... but the CJ was the gamechanger.

Cessna knows how to dominate a market, if you look a CJ3+ or a Phenom 300 everything else seems antiquated. If the Denali looks like a CJ3+ with a big fan on the front and a cargo door... it will be a game changer.
_________________
It’s a brave new world, one where most have forgotten the old ways.


Top

 Post subject: Re: Cessna Denali - First Impressions
PostPosted: 18 Mar 2019, 07:57 
Offline



 WWW  Profile




Joined: 05/23/13
Posts: 6717
Post Likes: +7255
Company: Jet Acquisitions
Location: Franklin, TN 615-739-9091 chip@jetacq.com
Username Protected wrote:
How far back are you talking? It's 2019 now.


The reason everyone thinks a jet should be single pilot... is Cessna. Before the 500 series everyone just accepted two pilot jets... it was one reason why jets were a big step up from a turboprop. By the way, back then they were all “Learjets” regardless of who built them. LOL

The reason everyone thinks legacy jets are expensive to maintain is Cessna. The 500, 550’s and 560’s were more economical than their competition ... but not by a lot.

That all changed in the 90’s, when Cessna developed the Citation Jet it changed the light jet world. The CJ series are so simple, so easy to work on, so economical that they became the standard.

Sure, there’s some other good options now... but the CJ was the gamechanger.

Cessna knows how to dominate a market, if you look a CJ3+ everything designed prior to it seems antiquated. If the Denali looks like a CJ3+ with a big fan on the front and a cargo door... it will be a game changer.

_________________
It’s a brave new world, one where most have forgotten the old ways.


Top

 Post subject: Re: Cessna Denali - First Impressions
PostPosted: 18 Mar 2019, 08:48 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 01/29/08
Posts: 26431
Post Likes: +13064
Location: Walterboro, SC. KRBW
Aircraft: PC12NG
Username Protected wrote:
Cessna knows how to dominate a market, if you look a CJ3+ or a Phenom 300 everything else seems antiquated. If the Denali looks like a CJ3+ with a big fan on the front and a cargo door... it will be a game changer.

Cessna is not dominating the market right now and hasn't for several years. Embraer, Cirrus, Honda, Pilatus, etc. have all entered Cessna's space. Market domination means nobody is coming in...... everyone has come in.

The CJ3+ is antiquated compare to the Phenom 300 but it's also a lot less expensive. I'm shopping both right now.

The Denali's "big fan up front and cargo door" has been around with Pilatus since 1994. Pilatus "changed the game" 25 years ago. This is why I wrote "it's 2019".... I'm hopeful Cessna has an "Ace up it's sleeve" and is going to whip out some major improvements over what they're already advertising with the Denali. We shall see.

Penman's comments (and mine) about "Privately Held Company" are spot in.. It is major battle for a large public company with "groupthink and bureaucracy" to complete with a privately held company with tons of money.


Top

 Post subject: Re: Cessna Denali - First Impressions
PostPosted: 18 Mar 2019, 09:05 
Offline


 Profile




Joined: 12/30/15
Posts: 714
Post Likes: +740
Location: NH; KLEB
Aircraft: M2, erstwhile G58
Username Protected wrote:

Is the PC24 putting a hurt on any of the Textron business?


Absolutely. It’s probably going to be hard to gauge, I know they’re losing CJ3+ and CJ4 buyers, but I think it cuts deeper than that.


Unless a new product grows primary demand in a given market, it has to steal share from existing players. Is the Pilatus jet bringing buyers into the market who would otherwise not play?

When looking at Beech/Cessna/Textron vs the competitors who are very successful in a given segment, those competitors are out-innovating Beech/Cessna/Textron in both step-change and incremental ways. But those competitors are also concentrating their resources on a more limited number of aircraft models. Is Beech/Cessna /Textron breadth of the product line is working against them vis more focused competitors?

A broad product line certainly presents the opportunity to appeal to different price points and mission profiles. It also has the potential to hinder innovation in an engineering and regulatory intensive endeavor like aerospace. Need lots more $$ and more engineering resources. Wonder where the the right balance exists between breadth of product line and willingness/ability to innovate more quickly?

Top

 Post subject: Re: Cessna Denali - First Impressions
PostPosted: 18 Mar 2019, 09:16 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 01/29/08
Posts: 26431
Post Likes: +13064
Location: Walterboro, SC. KRBW
Aircraft: PC12NG
Username Protected wrote:
Wonder where the the right balance exists between breadth of product line and willingness/ability to innovate more quickly?

The entire single pilot GA market could be serviced by just Cirrus and Pilatus.

SR20
SR22
SF50
PC12
PC24

That's some serious market focus.


Top

 Post subject: Re: Cessna Denali - First Impressions
PostPosted: 18 Mar 2019, 09:50 
Offline


 WWW  Profile




Joined: 12/03/14
Posts: 19252
Post Likes: +23613
Company: Ciholas, Inc
Location: KEHR
Aircraft: C560V
GA jets delivered in 2018:

Textron: 188
Bombardier: 137
Gulfstream: 121
Embraer: 91
Cirrus: 63
Dassault: 41
Honda: 37
Pilatus: 18
Boeing: 6
Airbus: 1
One Aviation: 0

Mike C.

_________________
Email mikec (at) ciholas.com


Top

 Post subject: Re: Cessna Denali - First Impressions
PostPosted: 18 Mar 2019, 10:44 
Offline


 Profile




Joined: 12/30/15
Posts: 714
Post Likes: +740
Location: NH; KLEB
Aircraft: M2, erstwhile G58
Would gently suggest a more granular breakdown. The Textron #s include some big boys as do the Dassault, Embraer and Gulfstream #s

Perhaps also limit to single pilot....

Textron in total leading the pack with 100 units. Spread across three platforms.

Next is Embraer at 64 units across two platforms.

Then, Cirrus SF50 at 63 units, but not sure really comparable to other single pilot jets.

Honda coming in third at 37 units on one platform.

Pilatus PC-24 at 18 units.

Part of the fewer Pilatus units is likely due to that it is at top of price point for this segment.
To put a finer point on it...

M2 Type category
Cessna M2; 34
Embraer Phenom 100EV; 11
Honda Jet; 37

Surprising to me that Honda Jet is outselling the Phenom 100EV, by over 4:1
Also outselling M2 by a whisker.

CJ3+ kind of a tweener bigger more capable than M2 class, not as capable as CJ4 class
CJ3+; 37

Cessna CJ4; 29
Embraer 300; 53
Pilatus PC-24; 18

Embraer 300 selling well in top category. Although there is probably some argument for lumping CJ3+ and CJ4 #s together vs Embraer. But still strong numbers for Phenom 300. Interesting that the Phenom 300 appears to be selling much more strongly in its category than the Phenom 100EV.


Last edited on 18 Mar 2019, 11:41, edited 2 times in total.

Top

 Post subject: Re: Cessna Denali - First Impressions
PostPosted: 18 Mar 2019, 10:53 
Offline


 Profile




Joined: 08/23/10
Posts: 843
Post Likes: +660
Only 18 PC12's? Is that right? If that's the size of the market I don't see why Cessna would bother with the Denali.


Top

 Post subject: Re: Cessna Denali - First Impressions
PostPosted: 18 Mar 2019, 10:58 
Offline


 Profile




Joined: 08/23/10
Posts: 843
Post Likes: +660
Just looked it up, per an October 2018 press release, Pilatus was expecting 80 PC12 deliveries in 2018 and had just delivered the 1600th unit. Pretty dang successful.


Top

Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic  [ 336 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15 ... 23  Next




You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  

Terms of Service | Forum FAQ | Contact Us

BeechTalk, LLC is the quintessential Beechcraft Owners & Pilots Group providing a forum for the discussion of technical, practical, and entertaining issues relating to all Beech aircraft. These include the Bonanza (both V-tail and straight-tail models), Baron, Debonair, Duke, Twin Bonanza, King Air, Sierra, Skipper, Sport, Sundowner, Musketeer, Travel Air, Starship, Queen Air, BeechJet, and Premier lines of airplanes, turboprops, and turbojets.

BeechTalk, LLC is not affiliated or endorsed by the Beechcraft Corporation, its subsidiaries, or affiliates. Beechcraft™, King Air™, and Travel Air™ are the registered trademarks of the Beechcraft Corporation.

Copyright© BeechTalk, LLC 2007-2024

.Wentworth_85x100.JPG.
.avionwealth-85x50.png.
.shortnnumbers-85x100.png.
.midwest2.jpg.
.dbm.jpg.
.traceaviation-85x150.png.
.temple-85x100-2015-02-23.jpg.
.aviationdesigndouble.jpg.
.aircraftferry-85x50.jpg.
.kingairnation-85x50.png.
.CiESVer2.jpg.
.AAI.jpg.
.bullardaviation-85x50-2.jpg.
.boomerang-85x50-2023-12-17.png.
.gallagher_85x50.jpg.
.aeroled-85x50-2022-12-06.jpg.
.aircraftassociates-85x50.png.
.centex-85x50.jpg.
.ssv-85x50-2023-12-17.jpg.
.MountainAirframe.jpg.
.airmart-85x150.png.
.kingairacademy-85x100.png.
.ei-85x150.jpg.
.planelogix-85x100-2015-04-15.jpg.
.bpt-85x50-2019-07-27.jpg.
.daytona.jpg.
.wat-85x50.jpg.
.saint-85x50.jpg.
.SCA.jpg.
.Rocky-Mountain-Turbine-85x100.jpg.
.jetacq-85x50.jpg.
.ABS-85x100.jpg.
.tat-85x100.png.
.Wingman 85x50.png.
.geebee-85x50.jpg.
.cav-85x50.jpg.
.Foreflight_85x50_color.png.
.chairmanaviation-85x50.jpg.
.pdi-85x50.jpg.
.camguard.jpg.
.wilco-85x100.png.
.sierratrax-85x50.png.
.blackhawk-85x100-2019-09-25.jpg.
.pure-medical-85x150.png.
.Latitude.jpg.
.one-mile-up-85x100.png.
.kadex-85x50.jpg.
.stanmusikame-85x50.jpg.
.lucysaviation-85x50.png.
.concorde.jpg.
.jandsaviation-85x50.jpg.
.Marsh.jpg.
.avfab-85x50-2018-12-04.png.
.blackwell-85x50.png.
.Genesys_85x50.jpg.
.headsetsetc_Small_85x50.jpg.
.tempest.jpg.