24 Apr 2024, 06:00 [ UTC - 5; DST ]
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Post subject: Re: Cessna Denali - First Impressions Posted: 10 Apr 2019, 15:36 |
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Joined: 11/19/12 Posts: 359 Post Likes: +251 Company: North Air Flite Location: Greenbush MN
Aircraft: 80 V35B
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Username Protected wrote: A couple of weeks ago I had an opportunity to fly a C90A full motion sim with G1000 avionics. What a wonderful update from electro-mechanical display technology!
If one is looking at what can be done to clean up a King Air, the answer is... LOTS. The nacelle/wing intersection is a flow disaster. Flows around the empennage are far, far from ideal. The windshield flow is awful. Elevator/horizontal span-wise flow sucks energy. Having seen some tuft testing on the airframe I would have to believe that a major clean-up would result in a substantial increase in cruise performance. Unfortunately the execution of that clean-up would likely invalidate the existing Type Certificate.
BTW I was involved in one of the earliest chicken gun certification tests not on the King Air but on the B1900. First chicken was aimed at the windshield centre pillar. It ended up back in the lav. Spectacular fail! Interesting times indeed... Your're supposed to use thawed chickens...
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Post subject: Re: Cessna Denali - First Impressions Posted: 10 Apr 2019, 20:49 |
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Joined: 05/23/13 Posts: 6787 Post Likes: +7339 Company: Jet Acquisitions Location: Franklin, TN 615-739-9091 chip@jetacq.com
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Username Protected wrote: Exposing my ignorance; what is the fastest KA model? What is the real world cruise performance at ISA? The King Air 250 (B200GT) and King Air 350i are the current production King Air 290+ kt airplanes. The King Air 300 (1984 - 1992) is the hotrod, most 300's are real close to 300 kts. They are -60A instead of the -52 on the 250, but I personally think it's the pitot cowling. We are talking is generalities because the actual speeds are all over the place... I've recently been in a 293 kt King Air 300 and the B200 Blackhawk we just acquired was the fastest I've been in, they claimed 308 kts and we were 307 true on the way to prebuy... close enough. (you asked about ISA and I don't remember the OAT but I have it on video somewhere) The fastest King Air was the King Air 350 with -67A engine upgrade from Blackhawk. The one we acquired for an Arizona based client trued 334 kts, was quieter than any turboprop I've been in and is awesome! BUT... it's reign isn't going to last long! Blackhawk is currently working on the STC for the -67 upgrade on the king air 300... the first time they flew it they were cruising at 354 kts!!! There is some rigging and adjusting, prop work, etc. to be done and I'm sure they'll advertise 345 kts (because some airframes will be slow) but it will be known as a 350 kt King Air!
_________________ It’s a brave new world, one where most have forgotten the old ways.
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Post subject: Re: Cessna Denali - First Impressions Posted: 20 May 2019, 13:59 |
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Joined: 05/31/13 Posts: 1235 Post Likes: +602 Company: Docking Drawer Location: KCCR
Aircraft: C425
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Quote: First flight is expected in the fourth quarter this year on a King Air testbed, which will be based in Prague for 75 hours of flight test. So much for an "early 2019" first flight of the Denali. Maybe it was a typo and they meant early 2020.
_________________ ATP, CFI-I, MEI http://www.dockingdrawer.com
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Post subject: Re: Cessna Denali - First Impressions Posted: 20 May 2019, 17:52 |
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Joined: 05/23/13 Posts: 6787 Post Likes: +7339 Company: Jet Acquisitions Location: Franklin, TN 615-739-9091 chip@jetacq.com
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1300 HP and a 105" Prop... Jet fuselage. This thing is going to haul butt.
_________________ It’s a brave new world, one where most have forgotten the old ways.
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Post subject: Re: Cessna Denali - First Impressions Posted: 20 May 2019, 18:03 |
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Joined: 01/16/11 Posts: 11105 Post Likes: +7090 Location: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Aircraft: PC12NG, G3Tat
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Username Protected wrote: 1300 HP and a 105" Prop... Jet fuselage. This thing is going to haul butt. Let's hope so. Fuselage is no different really than the PC12........only dif is the engine. They (Cessna) only have a 3 year window on it............... Once we see 2 large setp I think we'll see some improvements in the PC12 line. The specs on the Denali are not really different than the PC12. If their engine is 20% more efficient then we should she much better range.......... additional range would be awesome......
_________________ ---Rusty Shoe Keeper---
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Post subject: Re: Cessna Denali - First Impressions Posted: 20 May 2019, 18:13 |
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Joined: 05/23/13 Posts: 6787 Post Likes: +7339 Company: Jet Acquisitions Location: Franklin, TN 615-739-9091 chip@jetacq.com
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Username Protected wrote: 1300 HP and a 105" Prop... Jet fuselage. This thing is going to haul butt. Let's hope so. Fuselage is no different really than the PC12........only dif is the engine. They (Cessna) only have a 3 year window on it............... Once we see 2 large setp I think we'll see some improvements in the PC12 line. The specs on the Denali are not really different than the PC12. If their engine is 20% more efficient then we should she much better range.......... additional range would be awesome......
I don't know, it looks a lot cleaner, no raised rivets like the King Air and the wings appear to be clean instead of the missile mounts hanging down like the Pilatus.
I could be wrong but I think it will look like a CJ4 with a prop on the front.
_________________ It’s a brave new world, one where most have forgotten the old ways.
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Post subject: Re: Cessna Denali - First Impressions Posted: 20 May 2019, 18:33 |
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Joined: 01/16/11 Posts: 11105 Post Likes: +7090 Location: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Aircraft: PC12NG, G3Tat
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Username Protected wrote: I could be wrong but I think it will look like a CJ4 with a prop on the front. So the wing will not be efficient in the lower FL's?
_________________ ---Rusty Shoe Keeper---
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Post subject: Re: Cessna Denali - First Impressions Posted: 20 May 2019, 18:35 |
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Joined: 05/23/13 Posts: 6787 Post Likes: +7339 Company: Jet Acquisitions Location: Franklin, TN 615-739-9091 chip@jetacq.com
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Username Protected wrote: I could be wrong but I think it will look like a CJ4 with a prop on the front. So the wing will not be efficient in the lower FL's?
I'm not sure what the wing loading will be, I'm only referring to the airframe / wing having less drag. The King Air and the Pilatus are both pretty bad.
The interior of the Denali is 3" wider than the PC-12, but I'm curious what the outside dimension will be. The CJ4 has more interior width than the CJ3 even though they have the same outside dimension.
_________________ It’s a brave new world, one where most have forgotten the old ways.
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Post subject: Re: Cessna Denali - First Impressions Posted: 21 May 2019, 00:28 |
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Joined: 07/19/18 Posts: 368 Post Likes: +154
Aircraft: On the hunt...
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The whole Denali program is intriguing. Price d close to the PC-12 and looking like a brother from a different mother what are it's value propositions? A new untried engine that should be producible (11 major printed parts, yada yada) for much lower cost to produce (after the investment). GE has simply got to be *buying in*, offering Cessna a runaway good price, to help establish the engine in the marketplace. Pratt will almost certainly offer FADEC either just before or about the same time as GE's becomes available so that's not going to be a discriminator. The mechanization in the TBM already approaches the same result. Cessna, for their part, *should* be able to build the Denali for, let's say, 20% less than a PC-12 built in that low cost paradise, Switzerland. Cessna has much more history of dealing on price than does Pilatus. I just don't see how they, as the new product, can price the same as a known outstanding entry, the PC-12, and hope to succeed. What it suggests to me is that they are going to offer transaction prices and terms that Pilatus would only match painfully. And/or maybe they leverage their size (and lower cost) by offering a Socata-like five years of maintenance and warranty. Pilatus would be hard pressed to match that given their maintenance and parts prices. It's a mystery to me but they're smart guys and it's going to be fun to watch.
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Post subject: Re: Cessna Denali - First Impressions Posted: 21 May 2019, 08:41 |
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Joined: 03/04/13 Posts: 2592 Post Likes: +1255 Location: Little Rock, Ar
Aircraft: A36 C560 C551 C550S
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Username Protected wrote: Quote: I hate banks. Amen to that. I was just yelling at my banker this morning as a matter of fact. I've been in business for 19 years and they treat me like I'm Al Capone. Banks are with you win or draw. If you lose, they will be your biggest detractor. Robert T.
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Post subject: Re: Cessna Denali - First Impressions Posted: 21 May 2019, 09:37 |
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Joined: 01/16/11 Posts: 11105 Post Likes: +7090 Location: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Aircraft: PC12NG, G3Tat
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Username Protected wrote: The interior of the Denali is 3" wider than the PC-12, but I'm curious what the outside dimension will be. I'm not sold on dimension measuring until all manufacturers measure from the same points. I can tell you from experience, ships 1-50 will have some teething issues being new. I agree with John that cruise at 300 knots is a mental game changer. I've reviewed all the current jet options, reviewed the time savings, the weather decision making and came to the same conclusion again that the jet factors don't beat the PC12 for my missions.
_________________ ---Rusty Shoe Keeper---
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