I think the -135 is a 750 HP engine, but flat rated to 550 for the C90GT application, same as the blackhawk mod. I could be wrong about this though.

Just for another data point, I have a blackhawk 425 with an updated panel, hub caps, and have gone through some weight saving exercises. I just love this airplane for business and family hauling. Wife and I have five kids and it handles it with ease.

My empty weight is 5330 lbs leaving 1670 lbs that can be put in the cabin before ZFW limit and 893 lbs with full fuel.

Regular cruise is 280-290 ktas on 460 - 540 lbs/hr above FL240 depending upon temps and altitude. I wish it had a bit more cabin dif as FL270 and FL280 are sweet spots for speed and efficiency, but the 10k cabin is not ideal.

So much easier to live with than a piston twin. *knock on wood* This airplane just goes from phase to phase without complaint. No more fiddling with spark plugs, injectors, gami spreads, mixtures, magnetos, cracked exhausts, compression tests, etc.

James Dean

I’ve had my C425 now for 17-months and to date could not be happier with my purchase decision. An old school version with factory PT6-112 and 3-blade props.

Not much to add to this topic that John Ewald and Scott Dickey have not already stated. Sharing my experience as another data point on the C425 as well as to share performance as mine has all the speed accessories, speed stacks, strakes and Peter Danto wheel covers … but with the uncommon 3-blade props.

I came from a 20-year 2.9K hours ownership experience with a Baron. I loved that Baron to death but like most who upgrade to a Turbine have no regrets and wish I had done so 5+ years earlier. For those thinking of the transition from piston to turbine ... been said many times a METP costs a lot more to have fun than a normally aspirated Baron ... for now I find it worth every $ as almost any turbine now better meets by business and personal travel needs..

Will reiterate John Ewald comments on decision process and TBM ... I went through a similar process and in the end concluded that TBM maintenance costs may likely be as high as a legacy well cared for C425. With TBM, pay for the maintenance as you go or when you sell ... and when time to sell after 5-7 year ownership the airframe depreciation for when I acquired a 37 year old C425 (1981) vs. a 15 year old (2002) TBM or 10-year old Meridian (2008), all other things being, equal “should” be significantly less. Time will tell and in the total cost of ownership & operation not a big number ... but ... $$ are $$.

A bit more of the story for those who may find my decision process of interest ... everyone’s is different but then many are similar. Like John Ewald I thought a TBM700C2, although at the high end of my acquisition budget, was going to my choice.

The final four models I was considering in order of my initial preference were
1) TBM700C2
2) Meridian (2008 or newer)
3) KA C90 legacy 1970s (in top 3 as potty was important for wife)
4) distant 4th place C425 (many I talked to shook their heads warning about the SIDs).

I bounced into one of Scott’s post about C425 SIDS, reached out to him as to that point I knew so little about the SIDs with their being the primary reason the C425 was a distant 4th. Scott provided additional information as well as a referral to Peter Danto who is knowledgeable on both C421 and 425. A quick flight out to California to interview Peter as a C425 buyer’s agent* and at the same time Scott graciously provided a demo flight in his C425. The rest was history especially after my return back to Chicago … again sat in a TBM, Meridian then a C-90 ... disqualified all but the C90. You either want a bigger cabin or not ... to me I now required more elbow room for me, passengers and luggage space ... From a cabin space standpoint the KA is nicer over the C425 - but not by much and I preferred the C425 fligh deck over the KA. The C425 performance, acquisition cost and if properly vetted maintenance cost, pushed the C425 to the top of the list.

A big thank you to Scott and Peter Danto!

(* I knew so little about Turbine ownership decided I required a buyer’s agent. I had already conducted telephone interviews with 2 agents, KA and TBM specialists, both admitted they were not sufficiently knowledge to represent me for a C425. Flying out to interview Peter was in the and have nothing but good to say about Peter’s efforts as my agent.)

BTW … would I have been happy if fate pushed me to one of the other 3-models under consideration? … fully expect I would have been! They are all great airplanes. Learned long ago to love the one you are with especially after the completing the selection process!

Maintenance:
To date my maintenance has been right where Scott’s forecast are. Although still a newbie to C425 ownership my first phase 2 & 3 (1-year 130 hours) combined were the same as last 5-year average of Baron maintenance and annuals flying 110 hours/year. Next year Phase D will skewer the costs higher but expect that.

Performance
Mine has the original PT6-112 engines and 3-blade props; a good portion of the fleet has upgraded to 135 engines with most to 4-blade props. Tough to find a C425 for sale with 3-blades. Scott has 4-blades and recall compared to 3-blades has slightly shorter take off ground roll and increased climb rate of ~200fpm. Don’t know about 4-blade effect on cruise TAS but expect it is minimal.

Airframe Speed Options:
Have speed stacks, strakes and installed Peter Danto’s wheel covers. Can’t provide comparison TAS without the options but expect comparing my performance to others without them may help some.

TAS at 23-26K:
Summer typical is 260 - 264 and as expected faster in mid-west winter, 265-270 knots with TAS from G600.

ITTs:
at cruise in the flight levels ITT typically running 15-25 lower than limits in hot or cold ambient. Never hotter than 15 below the yellow line.

Fuel Burn:
Higher the better but at typical 23-26K typically ~500# 1st hour then 400#/hour. On any flight in the flight levels and over an hour this is remarkably consistent.

Range:
Head and tail winds are what they will be. As others have said figure 1,000 to 1,100 NM range.
Having said that ... 4 hours is as long as I want to sit in any flight deck. 4 hours = 1700 #fuel burn leaving 740#s reserve, almost, almost any flight I would knowingly undertake.

Payload:
I have fancy wood drawers and separator for potty / luggage area with resultant heavier empty weigh ... full fuel offers approx. 900#payload.

This is a fascinating thread.

My short list is identical to yours James, and I was/am headed down the path of a C2, after convincing myself that the late-model Blackhawk 425 I was looking at was unreasonably old and maintenance-hungry. The accounts of satisfied 425 owners are challenging that notion.

How are you finding other aspects of ownership, especially parts availability and price, and shrinking network of shows with 400-series experience?

Here's a little update on the SIDs. The bottom line is that the majority of the SIDs are trivial. A few are fairly major such as gear inspections but that's in line with other airframes which have gear overhaul requirements. The good thing about the 425 gear SIDs is that they are based on cycles, not the calendar and the intervals are pretty long (2000 cycles). But there are a couple SIDs that are potentially large enough to scrap the airframe due to the cost of complying with them. Fortunately, those are not due until 5000 hours after they were originally complied with in the 2008/2009 timeframe. Those would be phase 48 and 50. Those two basically require demating the wings, pulling the engines, and a whole litany of other stuff. I think the cost would be well in excess of $100K. So the moral of the story is when you buy a 425, make sure that not too much time has elapsed since the SIDs were c/w 10 years ago. In my case, my airplane had 1000 hours since the SIDs were done so I currently have 3700 hours until those 2 huge inspections are due. At 150 hours a year I probably won't even be flying by then so I don't really care. But if you are flying 400 hours per year it is something you need to be aware of. Anyway I posted a spreadsheet with all the phases and rough costs associated with most of them. Also, note that after the SIDs are all done (should have been 10 years ago), you can go entirely on hours/cycles rather than calendar as long as you are doing the regular Corrosion Protection and Control Program which involves 3 inspections (phase 59,60,61) at 24, 26, and 60 months respectively. 59 and 60 are less than $1K and 61 is a little under $5K if done with a 2,3,D.

Parts availability is not too bad. I really haven't had any issues finding parts except for when I needed an aileron bell crank. Cessna wanted $15K but I found a decent used one for a few hundred bucks. Many components can be repaired or overhauled by 3rd party companies without going to cessna. Examples: fuel flow indicator overhaul $600, fuel flow sender $600, torque indicator overhaul $400, signal conditioner overhaul/exchange $400, starter gen $1800, stall warning vane $1200. But I did have to pay $900 for a simple pulley on the a/c system and $2500 for the a/c compressor. Some parts are common with the 421 and there are a few PMA options available such as cabin windows and windshields. Living in New Zealand, there are pros and cons. The pro is you live in New Zealand! The con is you'll spend money on FedEx and have more down time if you have to send parts to the states for repair. I don't know what parts and service is like for a TBM in NZ. I bet there is decent support for KA's though.

I am spoiled because I live 45 flying minutes from arguably the best conquest shop in the world. So my issues get resolved pretty quickly and usually for the lowest possible cost (usually, but even Yoda the DOM has mis diagnosed a couple problems). They also provide awesome phone support and are super nice. But the airframe and systems are not that complex and the manuals are excellent. On the other hand, living in NZ might mean that you choose the airplane based more on service and support than we would here in the states. I bet a KA can be supported relatively easily in NZ, for example.

I'm happy to help point people in the right direction for parts, etc. Just shoot me a PM.

Who are the top shops for 425's, and where are they located?
Or, if you were based in the Dayton Ohio area where would you go?

West Star in Grand Junction, CO and Signature Technicair in Fresno, CO. I've heard good things about TAS in Defiance, OH. I know they are the authority on cessna piston twins and they are probably pretty good with the 425. But I would ask if they have done any of the major inspections on a 425. When the SIDs came out the big 3 shops doing them were West Star, Technicair (called corp air back then), and Yingling. So they saw the airplanes all pulled apart and know where all the bodies are buried. The problem is that the people that did that work are getting toward retirement age. I think that is especially true at Yingling. The DOM at Technicair was working on 425's when the were rolling out of the factory and has been ever since. He's super, super sharp and a really nice guy. I'm really lucky to have him close. I told him to go buy an expensive house and a boat so that he can't retire. This is the reality with all aging airframes that haven't been built in 30+ years. Even a 30+ year old KA has different systems than a new one and the experts in those systems are retiring. That's why it's important to keep and pass on as much tribal knowledge on these old airplanes as possible. The advantage of a KA is that many more people have that tribal knowledge because of the sheer number of airframes built. Or, go buy a new airplane and when it breaks tell the factory to just deal with it. If I could afford it that is exactly what I would do...

Can you share the shop that did the overhaul?

Jack, someone recently posted about a former TAS employee -(think it was their head guy?) branching out on his own in OH and was purported to have 425 experience.... I’ll try to dig it up.

https://www.beechtalk.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=155880&hilit=Tas+Ohio

Some discussion here, not 425 specifically, might have been another thread?

I've really enjoyed reading this thread. I always liked the 425 and looked at them for a while way back when. After reading through this, it amazes me how similar the 425 and the Mustang are. I didn't really make the connection before. I can almost exchange the data with my numbers.

My empty weight is 5378 lbs leaving 1372 lbs that can be put in the cabin before ZFW limit and 772 lbs with full fuel. Max gross ramp weight is 8730 and MGTOW is 8645. Almost identical to the 425.

Regular cruise is 335-350 ktas on 500 - 560 lbs/hr above FL380 depending upon temps and altitude. It has a good cabin dif at 8.4psi. FL400 and FL410 are sweet spots for efficiency, and the 7700 ft cabin at FL410 is nice. FL330 to FL350 are the sweet spots for speed.

Max range is 1200nm.

Typical ground roll is around 1500' with a balanced field length of 2500'-3000'. Typical landing distance is 2000'-2500'. Initial rate of third segment climb is around 3000 fpm.

My point isn't the direct comparison of the two airplanes, but the evolution of Cessna. It's almost like the Mustang came about to fill the same demand the 425 did in 1980. Obviously, the jet adds some things, but they compare well. I wonder what's next.

Tech Aire Instruments in Wichita. techcust@tech-aire.com Ask for Brenda. They also do the wet torque gauges, if you are unlucky enough to have those.

Gerald the -135’s on the C90GT are derated to 550 shp, the same as the -21’s on the 90B. The difference is at altitude, the -135’s don’t temp out as low as the -21’s. Hence better hot and high performance.

Tim

When talking about parts prices, I should have also mentioned the really gross offenders in order to be totally fair and impartial. Those are the pilot's windshield and the flow pack. The windshield is the same as the 421 and it's readily available, but it's $30K. No PMA alternative (there is for the co pilots side which is plastic). And the flow pack, possibly the achilles heel of the whole airplane. If you buy an OHE its $15K. If you go directly to Ontic for overhaul, it's $10K for an overhaul and like a month of downtime. And pray that the 2 solenoids aren't bad because those are $5K each and are not included in the overhaul. And the worst part? The flow packs are unreliable. The flow pack is actually two valves in one. There's a pressure regulating and firewall shut off section and then there is a bleed air shut off section. They are combined into one assembly. The firewall shut off/pressure regulating section is pretty robust and that's good because that's the important part of the valve. It shuts off bleed air in an emergency and regulates bleed air from 100 psi down to around 15 psi. But the bleed air shut off section tends to stick in the open position. It's not a huge deal and just means that you'll be pumping warm bleed air into the cabin on the ground and if it is hot out that means a very warm cabin. After take off though you want it open anyway so it's fine. I bet there are a lot of 425's out there with bleed air valves that don't close or are slow to close. If your flow pack has been overhauled in the recent past, has a data plate, etc then Ontic will repair just the shut off part of the valve. No idea what that costs but less than $10K I assume.