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 Post subject: Re: Off Market Aircraft
PostPosted: 27 Nov 2018, 22:42 
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Anyone have any tips on how a regular-joe can purchase an aircraft off-market? This company appears to be for very high-end turboprops/jets. What about the piston markets?

If you’re associated with a flight school or have a good relationship with an A&P, make sure they know what you’re looking for.


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 Post subject: Re: Off Market Aircraft
PostPosted: 28 Nov 2018, 11:05 
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Joined: 01/05/11
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Aircraft: 1969 Aerostar 600,
What are you looking for?


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 Post subject: Re: Off Market Aircraft
PostPosted: 28 Nov 2018, 12:29 
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Joined: 06/02/10
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Company: Inscrutable Fasteners, LLC
Location: West Palm Beach - F45
Aircraft: Planeless
Username Protected wrote:
Anyone have any tips on how a regular-joe can purchase an aircraft off-market? This company appears to be for very high-end turboprops/jets. What about the piston markets?


Hang out at the airport and get to know all your hangar neighbors well (grapevine), drop off your card at any nice planes you see on the ramp you may be interested in, etc.


This only works if you’re already “inside the fence”. Having been there, the word of mouth thing only works if you are already part of a community.

Best,
Rich

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 Post subject: Re: Off Market Aircraft
PostPosted: 28 Nov 2018, 12:44 
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Joined: 01/01/10
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Location: Roseburg, Oregon
Aircraft: Citation Mustang
Chip,

Since you work exclusively in acquisitions and are scouring availability, what are most sought after models right now, and which models are the most difficult to find?

_________________
Previous A36TN owner


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 Post subject: Re: Off Market Aircraft
PostPosted: 30 Nov 2018, 17:55 
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Joined: 06/25/08
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Company: Latitude Aviation
Location: Los Angeles, CA (KTOA)
Aircraft: 2007 Bonanza G36
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Hey Chip,

Greetings from New Braunfels. When I purchase an aircraft I try to avoid those owned by brokers due to the Occasional Sale exemption. Do you know of a way to avoid that?

John


John,

If you are trying to avail yourself of Texas' occasional sale exemption you not only need to avoid buying aircraft owned by brokers for inventory but also aircraft owned by sellers who have sales tax permits and are leasing the aircraft back to other entities. Those sellers are likely taking advantage of the "sale for resale" exemption and paying/charging sales tax on an hourly basis when they lease/rent their aircraft back to other entities. The "test" in Texas for an occasional sale is that the seller can't have a sales tax permit as the form requires a seller to sign the form and check the box that they don't have a sales tax permit in Texas (or any other state). So while a seller may not be an aircraft dealer/broker by trade they will be viewed as a retailer by the Texas Comptroller's office if they have a sales tax (resale) permit and are charging sales tax to any entity that is leasing or renting the aircraft.

-Neal

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Latitude Aviation
Specializing in sales/acquisitions services for Bonanzas, Barons, and TBM's


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 Post subject: Re: Off Market Aircraft
PostPosted: 30 Nov 2018, 22:32 
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Joined: 07/10/10
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Location: New Braunfels, TX
Aircraft: Conquest
Username Protected wrote:
If you are trying to avail yourself of Texas' occasional sale exemption you not only need to avoid buying aircraft owned by brokers for inventory but also aircraft owned by sellers who have sales tax permits and are leasing the aircraft back to other entities. Those sellers are likely taking advantage of the "sale for resale" exemption and paying/charging sales tax on an hourly basis when they lease/rent their aircraft back to other entities. The "test" in Texas for an occasional sale is that the seller can't have a sales tax permit as the form requires a seller to sign the form and check the box that they don't have a sales tax permit in Texas (or any other state). So while a seller may not be an aircraft dealer/broker by trade they will be viewed as a retailer by the Texas Comptroller's office if they have a sales tax (resale) permit and are charging sales tax to any entity that is leasing or renting the aircraft.

Yes, you’re correct and obviously familiar with the tax snares of Texas. I got hit on the purchase of a Champ years ago and learned an expensive lesson. Since then I’ve become thoroughly familiar with the law myself.

Texas has a reputation as a low-tax state but I could give plenty of examples of why that’s not true.

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----Still emotionally attached to my Baron----


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 Post subject: Re: Off Market Aircraft
PostPosted: 01 Dec 2018, 00:23 
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Joined: 10/03/16
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Location: Chicagoland
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Username Protected wrote:
If you are trying to avail yourself of Texas' occasional sale exemption you not only need to avoid buying aircraft owned by brokers for inventory but also aircraft owned by sellers who have sales tax permits and are leasing the aircraft back to other entities. Those sellers are likely taking advantage of the "sale for resale" exemption and paying/charging sales tax on an hourly basis when they lease/rent their aircraft back to other entities. The "test" in Texas for an occasional sale is that the seller can't have a sales tax permit as the form requires a seller to sign the form and check the box that they don't have a sales tax permit in Texas (or any other state). So while a seller may not be an aircraft dealer/broker by trade they will be viewed as a retailer by the Texas Comptroller's office if they have a sales tax (resale) permit and are charging sales tax to any entity that is leasing or renting the aircraft.

Yes, you’re correct and obviously familiar with the tax snares of Texas. I got hit on the purchase of a Champ years ago and learned an expensive lesson. Since then I’ve become thoroughly familiar with the law myself.

Texas has a reputation as a low-tax state but I could give plenty of examples of why that’s not true.


Illinois is really awesome (in the true meaning of the word) here. Buy and base in Illinois without paying use tax? If the catch you, it’s treble damages. And I’ve heard that there are rewards for dropping a dime on violators.

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 Post subject: Re: Off Market Aircraft
PostPosted: 01 Dec 2018, 12:02 
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Company: Michael Dunlevie PC
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Username Protected wrote:
Anyone have any tips on how a regular-joe can purchase an aircraft off-market? This company appears to be for very high-end turboprops/jets. What about the piston markets?


Join the type club for the aircraft model you are targeting. If multiple targets, multiple type clubs. Join your state flying association and any regional chapters available. If you have picked the mechanic that will maintain your plane after purchase, take him/her to lunch, with other pilots as available. This puts you "inside the fence" talking to owners and mechanics who know what is coming up for sale, and what's to avoid or chase.

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Michael


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 Post subject: Re: Off Market Aircraft
PostPosted: 01 Dec 2018, 21:57 
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Joined: 05/23/13
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Company: Jet Acquisitions
Location: Franklin, TN 615-739-9091 chip@jetacq.com
Username Protected wrote:
Chip,

Since you work exclusively in acquisitions and are scouring availability, what are most sought after models right now, and which models are the most difficult to find?


Any later model Citation, especially CJ2, 2+, 3, 3+... as well as Excel, XLS, XLS+

Even some of the legacy airplanes are hot, we had a heck of a time finding a buy on an Ultra.

Nice late model King Air 90s and B200’s with Garmin panels are hard to come by. The King Air 300 market did have several opportunities, but between us and others capitalizing on them that market is really tight now.

The late-model King Air 350 market has softened a little bit but was red hot earlier this year.

The TBM market is very tight especially the 700C2.

PC12 market is always tight.

Anything made by Embraer.

The Challenger 300 market is very tight, we are preparing for an acquisition next year and know that finding an airplane that can be bought right will be a challenge.

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It’s a brave new world, one where most have forgotten the old ways.


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 Post subject: Re: Off Market Aircraft
PostPosted: 09 Dec 2018, 22:50 
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Joined: 07/28/15
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Location: KDAW
Aircraft: Cessna 172
Found my plane years ago via the local A/P who had gone to a seminar to renew his IA talking with other A/Ps. You never know where you will run across a good plane so spread the word you're looking and what you're looking for.


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 Post subject: Re: Off Market Aircraft
PostPosted: 10 Dec 2018, 15:38 
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Joined: 08/03/08
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For 'little airplanes': Talk to an A&P who works a lot on the type. He probably has a list in his head of airplanes that he annuals every year and listens to the owners 'I should really sell this' sigh when he gets the bill.


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 Post subject: Re: Off Market Aircraft
PostPosted: 10 Dec 2018, 16:12 
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Joined: 02/23/08
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Company: Schulte Booth, P.C.
Location: Easton, MD (KESN)
Aircraft: 1958 Bonanza 35
Username Protected wrote:
Buy and base in Illinois without paying use tax? If the catch you, it’s treble damages. And I’ve heard that there are rewards for dropping a dime on violators.


How Soviet of them.

_________________
- As God as my witness, I thought turkeys could fly.

Robert D. Schulte
http://www.schultebooth.com


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 Post subject: Re: Off Market Aircraft
PostPosted: 16 Dec 2018, 19:20 
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Joined: 10/20/17
Posts: 1055
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Location: Fort Worth, TX (KFWS)
Aircraft: 1971 Bonanza A36
Username Protected wrote:
Hey Chip,

Greetings from New Braunfels. When I purchase an aircraft I try to avoid those owned by brokers due to the Occasional Sale exemption. Do you know of a way to avoid that?

John


John,

If you are trying to avail yourself of Texas' occasional sale exemption you not only need to avoid buying aircraft owned by brokers for inventory but also aircraft owned by sellers who have sales tax permits and are leasing the aircraft back to other entities. Those sellers are likely taking advantage of the "sale for resale" exemption and paying/charging sales tax on an hourly basis when they lease/rent their aircraft back to other entities. The "test" in Texas for an occasional sale is that the seller can't have a sales tax permit as the form requires a seller to sign the form and check the box that they don't have a sales tax permit in Texas (or any other state). So while a seller may not be an aircraft dealer/broker by trade they will be viewed as a retailer by the Texas Comptroller's office if they have a sales tax (resale) permit and are charging sales tax to any entity that is leasing or renting the aircraft.

-Neal

Neal,

Excellent synopsis. Once again - here’s an example of you helping out the community pro bono. Hope this info helps one of my fellow Texans.
_________________
Check six.


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 Post subject: Re: Off Market Aircraft
PostPosted: 17 Dec 2018, 13:52 
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Joined: 02/09/09
Posts: 5547
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Location: Owosso, MI (KRNP)
Aircraft: 1969 Bonanza V35A
A good, involved insurance agent will often know who' contemplating selling and/or upgrading...

Jason


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 Post subject: Re: Off Market Aircraft
PostPosted: 22 Dec 2018, 11:53 
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Joined: 05/23/13
Posts: 6715
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Company: Jet Acquisitions
Location: Franklin, TN 615-739-9091 chip@jetacq.com
We have two more off market aircraft closing before year end, a Blackhawk B200 and a Citation Ultra. By the numbers 75% of the aircraft we purchased in 2018 were off market. This number is way up over 2017 and shows how tight the market truly is.

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It’s a brave new world, one where most have forgotten the old ways.


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