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 Post subject: Re: Another Adventure - PA-32R-301T Turbo Saratoga SP
PostPosted: 11 Jan 2019, 19:28 
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How stable is a Toga? Forget your coffee in the back and fly a couple of legs...its still standing. Whoops!


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 Post subject: Re: Another Adventure - PA-32R-301T Turbo Saratoga SP
PostPosted: 11 Jan 2019, 19:39 
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How stable is a Toga? Forget your coffee in the back and fly a couple of legs...its still standing. Whoops!


:clap:
Nice landings

I emailed Larry Russell because of you.


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 Post subject: Re: Another Adventure - PA-32R-301T Turbo Saratoga SP
PostPosted: 11 Jan 2019, 20:20 
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How stable is a Toga? Forget your coffee in the back and fly a couple of legs...its still standing. Whoops!

I've typed the 'beer on the back bumper' story 2 or 3 times since your 'coffee in the back' post. I just keep deleting it. I'll quit trying and just shut up.


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 Post subject: Re: Another Adventure - PA-32R-301T Turbo Saratoga SP
PostPosted: 14 Jan 2019, 21:51 
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Total NOOB here. (New pilot working on instrument and looking to buy). The turbo ‘Toga is on my short list and I have learned a ton reading this thread. I’m sure I’ll learn much more.

I must admit, I had no idea owners could do so much work on their own planes. As a guy that’s been tinkering with and modding cars since learning to walk this has been an awesome revelation! That feeling you get from wringing out every bit of performance and efficiency out of fossil fuel burning machine is unparalleled! Thank you for sharing!


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 Post subject: Re: Another Adventure - PA-32R-301T Turbo Saratoga SP
PostPosted: 15 Jan 2019, 00:50 
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Company: Red Hawk
Location: TVC - Traverse City, MI
Aircraft: 2014 RV7A
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Here’s a cool trick for installing injectors. On big Lycs they are a little tough to get to. We threaded the injector into a tube and used that to fish it into the threads and hand tighten. I now carry this tube in my tool bag. A clogged injector could ruin your day in Mexico and its an easy fix.


Hmm. Can also ruin your day seaplaning. The skywagon will not get on step with just 1 injector clogged. Ask me and Ed Haines how we know!


But we also know how to solve the problem while on a remote lake in the backwoods of Canada. :thumbup:

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 Post subject: Re: Another Adventure - PA-32R-301T Turbo Saratoga SP
PostPosted: 15 Jan 2019, 00:55 
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Great story Jesse. I just came acrost it as I don’t spend much time on BT anymore. I did read it start to finish though. Are you in PAN now? I have an RV7A hangared in AVQ all winter and live in Oro Valley. I fly to Payson lots just to have breakfast or lunch at the airport cafe. I’d love to see your project/projects sometime.


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 Post subject: Re: Another Adventure - PA-32R-301T Turbo Saratoga SP
PostPosted: 15 Jan 2019, 09:02 
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Username Protected wrote:
Total NOOB here. (New pilot working on instrument and looking to buy). The turbo ‘Toga is on my short list and I have learned a ton reading this thread. I’m sure I’ll learn much more.

I must admit, I had no idea owners could do so much work on their own planes. As a guy that’s been tinkering with and modding cars since learning to walk this has been an awesome revelation! That feeling you get from wringing out every bit of performance and efficiency out of fossil fuel burning machine is unparalleled! Thank you for sharing!


All work has to be supervised by an IA.


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 Post subject: Re: Another Adventure - PA-32R-301T Turbo Saratoga SP
PostPosted: 15 Jan 2019, 09:03 
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Username Protected wrote:
Great story Jesse. I just came acrost it as I don’t spend much time on BT anymore. I did read it start to finish though. Are you in PAN now? I have an RV7A hangared in AVQ all winter and live in Oro Valley. I fly to Payson lots just to have breakfast or lunch at the airport cafe. I’d love to see your project/projects sometime.


Sure! Lets connect in PAN. I am buried until May with some business projects this year.


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 Post subject: Re: Another Adventure - PA-32R-301T Turbo Saratoga SP
PostPosted: 08 Feb 2019, 19:37 
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I took the Toga in for annual. My last words to John (IA) were "something is still not right about that motor, I'm betting it has a lazy lifter".

Compressions 80/80

Boroscope showed cylinder wall scoring (I knew that)

Oil Analysis came back with increased iron (and a note saying “metal has dogged this engine for years” - hmmm, the old mechanic neglected to mention that detail)

Running magnet through filter showed minor shavings, but nothing crazy


I asked John, "please measure valve opening on all jugs"

"hey Jesse, 2 sets of valves (which share lobes) are not opening as much as others"

That supports lazy lifters or worse. Engine still running AWESOME...hmmmm

"John - my spidey sense has been tingling"

"ok, let me pull a jug and take a look"


.....next day....

"Cam shot, lifters hammered"

"Thanks John, lets yank it"

So, the next chapter begins. I'll be using the boutique shop that did the motor for my Baron during the infamous flat-six hydrolock. I've spoken with Tim and the current plan is a TDI, then decide. I want to hone all jugs as well. Corrosion from the south is a beeeaatch. We don't get this stuff in AZ.

I am very happy to know I am addressing that nagging feeling that has been lingering.

I will update with pics as we go.

(700 hr factory motor living in Atlanta - installed 2010)


Last edited on 09 Feb 2019, 09:28, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Another Adventure - PA-32R-301T Turbo Saratoga SP
PostPosted: 08 Feb 2019, 20:16 
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Jesse sorry to hear about your luck :thumbdown: sure glad you found out this way!

Your experience with this has got me Saratoga hungry.
Larry Russell from Bartlet and I are neighbors too it turns out which hasn't helped any. He's such a salesman that he has a radio program on Saturday mornings!

Jesse's Toga is indeed RARE. Boots or TKS are not common Toga equipment. TKS can only be installed on limited late model airplanes, none of the 80s models are eligible.

Has anyone put Boots on a Toga from http://www.iceshield.com/Saratoga ?
55k plus installation for wings, prop, hot plate, ice light. Its non hazard so pick and choose your options ala cart style, save 3k by not having the light .

I live in Indiana. All our XC trips are 60 min flights and ~4 hour drives. Seems like we don't go anywhere in nice weather. Think north east corner of IN where border meets OH and Michigan. We have lots of ICE.

We fly to Eastern Ohio, and Northern Michigan. I file IFR with family every time. We don't fly at night and we don't mess with ICE. Dot. Period. I'm trying to convey that I'm not looking to launch into icing conditions in a small plane no matter how equipped, but rather want an additional tool for when my plan to avoid ICING doesn't work or turns out to be wrong. I've made those trips rarely in our Cessna with a heated pitot tube and it is a rare event that I can be confident that we can get there and back 2 days later with a solid plan to avoid ICE both directions.

So - anyone done this? Anyone know of anyone who's done this?

I am aware general consensus to buy one equipped the way you want it but since Jesse's isn't for sale (YET!) and I'm not excited about the alternatives (6 seats single piston ~140 or less budget = PA32, 210, 206) this is where I'm at. TKS isn't available on the PA32's I can afford. Yes a 36 with TKS would be awesome. And too much money.

Is adding on Boots and Hot prop foolish?
Am I overlooking some alternative?

Thanks for letting me jump onto your Toga thread Jesse!
Jake


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 Post subject: Re: Another Adventure - PA-32R-301T Turbo Saratoga SP
PostPosted: 08 Feb 2019, 20:27 
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I am aware general consensus to buy one equipped the way you want it but since Jesse's isn't for sale (YET!) and I'm not excited about the alternatives (6 seats single piston ~140 or less budget = PA32, 210, 206) this is where I'm at. TKS isn't available on the PA32's I can afford. Yes a 36 with TKS would be awesome. And too much money.


140k would get you a nice booted Baron. A 55 with boots would be perfect. Opex higher than the single but not nearly what some folks would have you believe, and will haul the mail while giving you a bunch of extra HP to beast through inadvertent icing encounters as well.

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 Post subject: Re: Another Adventure - PA-32R-301T Turbo Saratoga SP
PostPosted: 08 Feb 2019, 20:56 
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140k would get you a nice booted Baron. A 55 with boots would be perfect. Opex higher than the single but not nearly what some folks would have you believe, and will haul the mail while giving you a bunch of extra HP to beast through inadvertent icing encounters as well.


Honestly I'm not sure I'm thick of wallet enough for a twin. Between insurance and engine reserves I'm a little concerned. I COULD but....

The part I left out is that I need to move bikes when I'm not moving the rest of my family. I cycle and need to move myself plus a passenger and 2 road bikes or 2 mountain bikes plus gear. C180 does that easy, folding jump seats, big flat floor and surprisingly large doors. Anyone doing that with a Baron 55? Bike frame fit through the baggage door or have to go over the wing? Do you take seats out to fit a pair of bikes in a 55?

So PA32 A36 C206/C210 would fit the bill. Heck a 182 with jump seats and TKS would probably work if am being honest (also pretty rare) but I'd like to have more space.

I'll try not to make this a which airplane should I buy but I appreciate the response! Anyone else that wants to comment on a 55 and bikes drop me a private message please!


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 Post subject: Re: Another Adventure - PA-32R-301T Turbo Saratoga SP
PostPosted: 09 Feb 2019, 09:31 
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Username Protected wrote:

140k would get you a nice booted Baron. A 55 with boots would be perfect. Opex higher than the single but not nearly what some folks would have you believe, and will haul the mail while giving you a bunch of extra HP to beast through inadvertent icing encounters as well.


To get similar utility it would have to be a 58. The Baron’s cabin would be tighter and you’d burn more gas for the similar speed, but you’d have a second engine.


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 Post subject: Re: Another Adventure - PA-32R-301T Turbo Saratoga SP
PostPosted: 09 Feb 2019, 10:00 
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Here is a shot of the cam lobe and lifter face. Always trust your gut and listen to your plane!


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 Post subject: Re: Another Adventure - PA-32R-301T Turbo Saratoga SP
PostPosted: 09 Feb 2019, 14:28 
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140k would get you a nice booted Baron. A 55 with boots would be perfect. Opex higher than the single but not nearly what some folks would have you believe, and will haul the mail while giving you a bunch of extra HP to beast through inadvertent icing encounters as well.


To get similar utility it would have to be a 58. The Baron’s cabin would be tighter and you’d burn more gas for the similar speed, but you’d have a second engine.


Yes it's just much easier to find something deiced in the budget, and the excess climb power is useful. I did put 3 mountain bikes through the big bag door on my 55 with the 4th, 5th and 6th seats out by taking off the front tires and collapsing the seat post. Workable but a 58 would be easier with the barn doors.

Sorry about your engine Jesse. If you're going to tear it down why not just make it a major?
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