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 Post subject: Re: Another Adventure - PA-32R-301T Turbo Saratoga SP
PostPosted: 09 Dec 2018, 21:12 
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Ring wash complete. First flight was a little rough, but once plugs cleared its back to smooth like a Singer.

After running, then dumping oil, then refilling and flying it appears we may have been successful. The oil on the belly looks like it is drastically reduced. Time will tell as old oil is buried in every seam at the moment.

We are chasing the Gami spread a bit, but we have made a ton of progress and although its not where I want it the current performance is very nice.

Here is a download of my first flight on the way home vs. a test flight today. Notice how the FF was fluctuating (intake leaks and debris in injector lines), now its solid. CHTs were all over the board and power output was too. This meant vibration and low performance. Also, we had issues with a few probes creating false indications.

Today you'll see the CHTs are very close as well as power output. The engine is happy. I'm happy.

We set up long range cruise at 15,500. 180ktas per 3-way GPS on 16.3 gph. 32/2500 The GAMI spread is still .9 as each change affects the balance overall. We may have to attack the problem a little differently.


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 Post subject: Re: Another Adventure - PA-32R-301T Turbo Saratoga SP
PostPosted: 09 Dec 2018, 21:18 
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Joined: 07/22/14
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Company: Mountain Airframe LLC
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I've been subscribed to this thread since you started it. Enthusiasm is contagious, even if it is a Piper ;) :thumbup:


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 Post subject: Re: Another Adventure - PA-32R-301T Turbo Saratoga SP
PostPosted: 09 Dec 2018, 21:22 
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How do you ensure that all of the ring wash concoction is out of the sump?


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 Post subject: Re: Another Adventure - PA-32R-301T Turbo Saratoga SP
PostPosted: 09 Dec 2018, 21:27 
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Username Protected wrote:
How do you ensure that all of the ring wash concoction is out of the sump?


Drain intake, exhaust, and motor engine. Drain wash from pan. Fill with oil. Run engine/fly. Drain oil. Refill again.

After that first refill and one flight, that oil turned black in an hour. I wish I could disassemble the engine and see what it looks like in there. The wash made the plugs look new just from soaking. The pistons shine. I have to imagine it made quite a difference based on what came out.


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 Post subject: Re: Another Adventure - PA-32R-301T Turbo Saratoga SP
PostPosted: 09 Dec 2018, 22:20 
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Joined: 10/11/18
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Location: Atlanta, GA (KPDK)
Aircraft: 2002 King Air 350
Finally changed that number 6 CHT probe?

_________________
ATP, CFI, BE30, E55P, G100, IA-1125, DA-50


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 Post subject: Re: Another Adventure - PA-32R-301T Turbo Saratoga SP
PostPosted: 09 Dec 2018, 22:23 
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Yes...also discovered 3 probes had incorrect wires spliced into harness buried inside a fire sleeve. Replaced several bad egt probes as well.


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 Post subject: Re: Another Adventure - PA-32R-301T Turbo Saratoga SP
PostPosted: 10 Dec 2018, 01:31 
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Company: Easy Ice, LLC
Location: Marquette, Michigan; Scottsdale, AZ, Telluride
Aircraft: C510,C185,C310,R66
Going to be the first 200 TAS Toga ever.


Owned Cherokee 6 TN with dual rajays. Still miss that bird.

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 Post subject: Re: Another Adventure - PA-32R-301T Turbo Saratoga SP
PostPosted: 10 Dec 2018, 09:31 
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[youtube]http://youtu.be/ER2UIgH-M6E[/youtube]

[youtube]http://youtu.be/3N9x4ZAs6hk[/youtube]


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 Post subject: Re: Another Adventure - PA-32R-301T Turbo Saratoga SP
PostPosted: 10 Dec 2018, 12:27 
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Joined: 10/16/10
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Location: SLC
Aircraft: A220/737/757/DC9/B55
I’m excited that you have a good plane, I read through all the pages of this thread. I’ve owned ten planes in last 15 years, I had a Cherokee six which I liked but it was slow. I replaced it with a 1982 turbo Saratoga and hated it! I liked most of the planes I had, but this one was a constant hassle and maintenance nightmare.

It seemed like a good idea in theory or on paper but maybe I just had a bad one.

Likes: roomy, good ventilation, passengers loved the space
Easy to remove seats, work on it, loved the second baggage compartment and fairly quiet when flying farther from engine

dislikes:
I installed new Gem engine monitor and in two years of ownership were constantly replacing ChT probes that went bad, shorted out etc, it was a constant hassle.
I had the AC, needed servicing several times, that was probably just previous owner neglect
Put brand new cylinders on it and even then it climbed out at a pathetic rate and burned huge amounts of gas, always running hot ( I had the turbo plus inter cooler and not sure if it did anything to help). Whenever I tried to run LOP the engine temps went up so high it scared me. It seemed to be normal for the airplane to climb 500 fpm to altitude, then burn 21-22 GPH at 160 kts.

In comparison, my B-55 Baron rarely gives me any troubles, cruises at 185+ knots after climbing effortlessly to altitude quickly, and I can lean it out to 24 gph, not much more than the Toga. It’s a joy to fly, built like a tank and stone simple to work on.


I hated the way the Toga flew on takeoff and landing, it flew like a dump truck in comparison to my Beechcraft.

The gear design did not impress me. Had to work on it several times, it got stuck down 2x, needed to bled 2x, had a dumb “third hand/magic hand” to put it down if you forgot, that had a cardboard bellows that was shot and made the gear malfunction once. Previous owner had replaced the power pack with new ones a couple of times! I had it listed for sale and on the demo flight the gear wouldn’t go up on first try, really embarrassing.

So it looks like you probably have a good one, and I had a bad one. I really wanted it to work out, seemed like a great plane in theory for me, but I really like Beechcraft planes a lot better.


Last edited on 10 Dec 2018, 13:10, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Another Adventure - PA-32R-301T Turbo Saratoga SP
PostPosted: 10 Dec 2018, 12:48 
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Time will tell on the gear. I’ve replaced the power pack and installed the new style relays, where the ground was dedicated vs through the case to the airframe (intermittent weak point).

Regarding the engine, I had a pair of TIO540s in my Navajo and became very familiar with tuning them. You’d pay a mechanic a FORTUNE to dial one in thats out of whack. It takes many flight tests, tweaks, and tests again but as my Savvy download shows above they are amazing once performing properly.

I would suspect the probe issues were a function of updraft cooling and wire routing. We fire-sleeved the harness as its definitely hot up top when the exhaust is the last thing air hits as heat escapes the cowl.

So many planes end up with a bad wrap due to improper setup and maintenance. My PBaron is the classic example. I spent MORE on maintenance than the purchase price plus 2 years of nights and weekends making that plane perform. The final result was outstanding, but the typical owner would have hated it and swore of turbo’d Beechcraft.

I made an offer a while ago on your plane (if its the one you just sold on BT)...glad you didn’t take it! :D


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 Post subject: Re: Another Adventure - PA-32R-301T Turbo Saratoga SP
PostPosted: 11 Dec 2018, 13:08 
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Joined: 10/11/18
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Location: Atlanta, GA (KPDK)
Aircraft: 2002 King Air 350
Username Protected wrote:
Time will tell on the gear. I’ve replaced the power pack and installed the new style relays, where the ground was dedicated vs through the case to the airframe (intermittent weak point).

Regarding the engine, I had a pair of TIO540s in my Navajo and became very familiar with tuning them. You’d pay a mechanic a FORTUNE to dial one in thats out of whack. It takes many flight tests, tweaks, and tests again but as my Savvy download shows above they are amazing once performing properly.

I would suspect the probe issues were a function of updraft cooling and wire routing. We fire-sleeved the harness as its definitely hot up top when the exhaust is the last thing air hits as heat escapes the cowl.

So many planes end up with a bad wrap due to improper setup and maintenance. My PBaron is the classic example. I spent MORE on maintenance than the purchase price plus 2 years of nights and weekends making that plane perform. The final result was outstanding, but the typical owner would have hated it and swore of turbo’d Beechcraft.

I made an offer a while ago on your plane (if its the one you just sold on BT)...glad you didn’t take it! :D


I remember I had gear troubles in that airplane a few years ago. It cant have 100-150 hours on it since it was repaired. I cant remember if they replaced the power pack or one of the valves in the auto gear/ emergency gear extension. I was flying with my girlfriend and noticed the red gear unsafe light was on, accompanied by a degradation in speed. I knew that the gear was starting to sag, but continued on to my home airport another 25 minutes away. It was around 500 overcast over the entire state. I began to pump the gear down while being vectored to the ILS, and only got the two main lights to come on. I quickly switched the bulbs to no avail. I advised the tower that we were going to do a low approach to see if they could get a visual on the gear. I broke out and slowed to do the low pass, then BAM, the nose gear locked.

Ive on and off flown 8241A since 2007. She is a great airplane and never let me down once.

_________________
ATP, CFI, BE30, E55P, G100, IA-1125, DA-50


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 Post subject: Re: Another Adventure - PA-32R-301T Turbo Saratoga SP
PostPosted: 11 Dec 2018, 14:37 
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Love the history!

I have flown two flights since the ring wash and the issue is definitely improved. I’d guess it will take 10 hrs or so to know for sure. We shall see. I’ve got 4 hours coming up on Thursday and then 8 over the weekend so we’ll know soon.


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 Post subject: Re: Another Adventure - PA-32R-301T Turbo Saratoga SP
PostPosted: 17 Dec 2018, 15:39 
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The oil on the belly is significantly reduced. Now I’m trying to find the oil level it likes.

After tinkering with individual injectors I decided to just do it right. Removed all upper deck, cleaned and blew out with solvent, ran injectors in ultrasonic, found a flattened injector oring so replaced all 12, fixed a small fuel leak at one upper deck sleeve.

The test flight went well, however there is still a VERY small roughness at higher altitudes LOP. Its intermittent. The composite prop exposes every little issue due to its light weight. Some flights its there and others its not. Now that all fuel and upper deck issues are SOLVED, I’m looking at ignition.

I installed fine wires, OHd mags, etc. The harness looks a little rough at some leads.

Oil/Air sep on order along with a new slick harness. Onward!


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 Post subject: Re: Another Adventure - PA-32R-301T Turbo Saratoga SP
PostPosted: 17 Dec 2018, 15:46 
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Joined: 08/31/17
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Username Protected wrote:
The oil on the belly is significantly reduced. Now I’m trying to find the oil level it likes.

After tinkering with individual injectors I decided to just do it right. Removed all upper deck, cleaned and blew out with solvent, ran injectors in ultrasonic, found a flattened injector oring so replaced all 12, fixed a small fuel leak at one upper deck sleeve.

The test flight went well, however there is still a VERY small roughness at higher altitudes LOP. Its intermittent. The composite prop exposes every little issue due to its light weight. Some flights its there and others its not. Now that all fuel and upper deck issues are SOLVED, I’m looking at ignition.

I installed fine wires, OHd mags, etc. The harness looks a little rough at some leads.

Oil/Air sep on order along with a new slick harness. Onward!


Can I get in line to be its new caretaker when you're done?


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 Post subject: Re: Another Adventure - PA-32R-301T Turbo Saratoga SP
PostPosted: 17 Dec 2018, 15:46 
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Aircraft: PA-46-310P
Username Protected wrote:
Oil/Air sep on order along with a new slick harness. Onward!
I know some love and some hate air/oil separators, but I watched a bunch of Mike Busch's "Savvy Aviation" youtube videos this weekend and he quoted some guy that likened the separator to connecting a tube from your butt to your mouth.

Said you don't want all of the byproducts of combustion piped back into the motor.


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