I am looking in upgrading to a P210 from my 1966 NA V35. I have operated my V35 now 4 years. I use my aircraft mainly as a shuttle bus btw Belgium and Hungary about 600 Nm this involves always a difficult part around Austria with MSA of btw 7 and 10KFt dependent on the routing. Cancellations always seems to be most of the time due to potential icing conditions around mountains or en route. In summer convective weather can be challenging specially around that area due to the Alps where convective weather is always blossoming I have now the very difficult decision or to upgrade to TKS on my V35 or to look for a turbocharged aircraft with de-ice boots. In Europe the P210 was relatively popular since it offers some capability for typical european missions. It can fly hi and is able to land on relatively short Runways
So what do I do? There is almost nothing else available, I was considering a Mooney Bravo ( I owned a 201 several years ago) but then this will be difficult to operate from 2000Ft concrete (+ 2000Ft grass extended), I think? Bravo/TLS owners opinions welcome...
- I love flying my V tail (with Tip Tanks) it has serve me well till now, I have flown through some real crap weather in it and I know what it it can do and not (the limitations are above FL120 it becomes a dog in climb) around FL120 you're still full in the weather and icing
- Upgrading to TKS will solve several issues on my dispatch rate but not everything (lack of service ceiling). Though now at least climbing to Fl140 would be possible while till now the only way was going down to loose the ice. The TKS seems to be a very desirable option flying around 50N lat
- Installing TKS and Turbo Normalizing on my V35 is out my budget (100K).
- P210's can be found reasonably priced as its used for a niche market of Pilots
- My concern is the inflating maintenance/operatiing costs I will have on the P210
- Be able to go to FL170-FL180 is a huge plus, having then de-ice or anti ice seems a must.
Now some questions:
- Can the P210 be flown in eco mode! Meaning giving still 165 Kts TAS on what Fuel Flow? 13-14 GPH LOP or more?
- Is the pressurization/ de-ice boots problematic when flying hi in eco mode e.g Lower MP and RPM LOP?
- Is the maintenance such a big pain as I read everywhere?
- What would be the typical difference in total fuel for a 600 NM trip btw a V35 and a P210 assuming you would fly the V35 12 GPH with a 160TAS.
- Bottom line I don't mind flying four hours I want to increase my dispatch rate in teh most economic way!
thanks for your views.
PS I love flying my aircraft and as such will not take this decision lightly :-)

At least in the US, there are a lot more T210's than P210's. In other words, turbocharged and de-iced but not pressurized. T210's have MUCH better short field performance since they are lighter than P210's. If you have a 2000ft runway, I think the T210 would be preferred. You'd have to wear an oxygen mask or cannula, but that's not a big deal.

Thx Jesse,
T210s are a rare find in Europe. P210 not so....

Luc

We have discussed this earlier on the phone, but might be interesting for other readers from Europe and the US:



If you find a well kept P210, your maint costs will be about the same as for other similar aircrafts. Turbo adds costs. Leak checking the cabin also.
Where it gets crazy expensive is when the cabin pressurisation system fails. Parts are not available from Cessna, and repairs can be expensive. Equipping yourself with these parts from ebay or other parts providers gives you some predictability when you end up AOG.

Get the right mechanic and you are fine (they are out there). Handing over the key to most European Maintenance shops will be costing you a lot of money.
Having a N-reg is very important.



You probably would get about 160-165 TAS at 14GPH. Depends on weight.
Here is pictures of mine at 17000 burning 15.5 LOP






On well kept leak free systems this shouldnt be an issue.
I have been at FL210 LOP, and the pressurisations system worked as it should.

De-Ice pressure is a closed system coming off your Vacuum pump, so as long as this pump is working properly, boots should work fine.
The earlier models (Pre 1982), blows the boots less than the never models with twin vacuum pumps connected in series.


NAH. Only if you have big hands

Espen,

Thank you for clarifying it once again to me . Do you have radarpod hanging under your wing?
I once had the experience that the ADL system (similar as nexrad in Europe) had too much delay to show me a fast growing TCU. At FL100 due to humidity, visibility was poor and by the time I was to close I ended up in some local embedded situation, which was, let's say far from comfortable. My stormscope started to paint when I was already in the stuff. I assume at 17 to 21 it will be much easier to avoid visually the worst build ups....
PS nice set up The TIT is at the limit...but reading from the Gurus this doesn't seem to be a limiting factor when well LOP

Hi Luc
Just keep collecting all the data and experience you can before deciding to purchase.

I dont have a radar, so no Pod
Regarding weather avoidance of TS, I would say that you very seldom can get above the weather with the P210. You have to circumnavigate.
I also use a ADL140 and WX-1000 stormscope, but I wont use it to pick a tight route between cells. Then I rather make a big detour or land.
Fortunatly we dont have much of the massive long squall lines in Europe, so getting around more isolated cells is doable.

Regarding LOP, Im normally riding 1615-1640F TIT when burning 15.5-16GPH.
Im trusting the Gurus on this. If the Connies could operate like this, so can we.

I can't speak to LOP performance, but here are a few thoughts on maintenance compared to your Bonanza.

There is obviously more "stuff" to maintain, a lot of which is tightly packed in the engine compartment.

The P210 is sort of a slow climber, especially in hotter weather. This, combined with the natural tendency to fly higher to take advantage of pressurization, results in more operational time at higher power, which IMHO takes its toll on engine and exhaust system. Exhaust system maintenance can be a fairly big deal and is safety critical.

Thx Bill noted, I see does the iconel exhaust still have these issues..?

The P210 is already a dog, i cant see runing it eco mode or at reduced power setting.

Eu, Ice, mountain, short runways, sounds like a job for a Jetprop.

Thats a good point. I was amazed at how poorly the P210 climbs and Ive also noticed many engines have had catastrophic failure on the P210. Most people say its because the TSIO520 is asked to do a lot more work than other applications.

You will see about 500-700 feet/min climb in the P210.

A lot lower rate if trying to get really high when heavy.
Step climb is what we do. Normally start out at 16000 and going from there.

As long as you dont have a rotten exhaust from the get go, your exhaust will out last your engine. But it is VERY expensive as it is made out of inconel.

A lot of the comments above is just plain wrong.

A well maintained and operated TSIO will work as well as on a TC Bonanza.

Old these old horror stories are from the days when nobody knew WTH was going on up front.
Its a lot different these days with engine monitors.
Baffling maintenance should be nr1 on your mechanics annual list.

The P210 is an under appreciated asset for what it actually can do.
Most of the reason for that is the bad mouthing about it from pilots that have hardly flown them, or mechanics that used to work on them back in the days.

Owners, pilots (and some mechanics) that know how to get around the issues of this aircraft, loves them.

My 0.02$

Vitatoe P210 with boots or TKS should do the job.

https://www.avweb.com/news/features/Tur ... 019-1.html

Marc, A SE is also something I would desire however at a different budget. In that case I would keep my V tail and TKS TN it...As Espen wrote, maybe it's an under appreciated aircraft suffering from legacy issues and lack of real understanding on how to operate it within its safe limitations..not for the hamfisted pilot!

Luc

If you would like some P210 inflight experience, fly down to LOIH in your Bonanza.
Just pay for fuel, and we can go flying, checking if the P210 would be suitable for your needs.

Thx Espen, very much appreciated!