banner
banner

29 Mar 2024, 11:27 [ UTC - 5; DST ]


Concorde Battery (banner)



Reply to topic  [ 34 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Username Protected Message
 Post subject: Re: $5.5M down and $145k a month for 20 years...
PostPosted: 21 Oct 2018, 14:27 
Offline


 Profile




Joined: 12/07/09
Posts: 352
Post Likes: +305
You guys are acting like $26.5 is a lot for a jet, that is less than half price for a premium ultra long range business jet.


Top

 Post subject: Re: $5.5M down and $145k a month for 20 years...
PostPosted: 22 Oct 2018, 00:23 
Offline


User avatar
 WWW  Profile




Joined: 08/03/10
Posts: 1562
Post Likes: +1781
Company: D&M Leasing Houston
Location: Katy, TX (KTME)
Aircraft: CitationV/C180
The Lotto jet is a CJ3+ with Garmin G3000. Can’t see any reason for anything else ever for a personal plane. Longer trips with lotto money, just charter a G6 and enjoy the ride in the back. That’s me anyway.


Top

 Post subject: Re: $5.5M down and $145k a month for 20 years...
PostPosted: 22 Oct 2018, 00:44 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 01/12/14
Posts: 878
Post Likes: +523
Location: KCRQ
Aircraft: OP's, 414A, RV6
Wonder how the jet use by GE execs is viewed in retrospect by stockholders today.


Top

 Post subject: Re: $5.5M down and $145k a month for 20 years...
PostPosted: 22 Oct 2018, 07:46 
Offline


 Profile




Joined: 12/30/15
Posts: 714
Post Likes: +740
Location: NH; KLEB
Aircraft: M2, erstwhile G58
Username Protected wrote:
Corporate decisions to buy resources like airplanes, equipment, or added people typically come down to return on investment. If this airplane can help a company to become more effective, efficient, and make more money, the $5.5M down and $145k/mo is worth it.


Maybe....

for a privately held company; probably. The cost to acquire, operate and maintain the aircraft is coming right out of the decision makers' pockets. For a publicly held company, comes down to convenience and status for the execs. They are not paying for anything. Witness GEs fleet of aircraft, whilst Immelt was destroying value as evidenced in a declining stock price and lagging the S&P. So for public companies... it depends and the decision is not being made by the people paying the bills, the stockholders.


Top

 Post subject: Re: $5.5M down and $145k a month for 20 years...
PostPosted: 22 Oct 2018, 07:54 
Offline


 Profile




Joined: 08/31/17
Posts: 1589
Post Likes: +623
Aircraft: C180
Username Protected wrote:
When I win the lottery this Tuesday, I’m putting in my order. Of course since I don’t play my chances of winning aren’t good but they won’t improve much if I buy a ticket.


My wife bought a ticket, I'll let everyone know if I'm joining the Jet Elite


Top

 Post subject: Re: $5.5M down and $145k a month for 20 years...
PostPosted: 22 Oct 2018, 09:22 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 06/05/11
Posts: 387
Post Likes: +172
Location: Atlanta, GA
Aircraft: SR22
Username Protected wrote:
The Lotto jet is a CJ3+ with Garmin G3000. Can’t see any reason for anything else ever for a personal plane. Longer trips with lotto money, just charter a G6 and enjoy the ride in the back. That’s me anyway.


Exactly! Something decent for most of the US. Then for longer trips charter something bigger/faster and ride in the back and drink high dollar bourbon. :thumbup:

_________________
Wayne

LinkedIn
instagram: waynecease


Top

 Post subject: Re: $5.5M down and $145k a month for 20 years...
PostPosted: 22 Oct 2018, 09:46 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 02/22/12
Posts: 2427
Post Likes: +957
Aircraft: G36 turbo normalized
Username Protected wrote:
Corporate decisions to buy resources like airplanes, equipment, or added people typically come down to return on investment. If this airplane can help a company to become more effective, efficient, and make more money, the $5.5M down and $145k/mo is worth it.


Maybe....

for a privately held company; probably. The cost to acquire, operate and maintain the aircraft is coming right out of the decision makers' pockets. For a publicly held company, comes down to convenience and status for the execs. They are not paying for anything. Witness GEs fleet of aircraft, whilst Immelt was destroying value as evidenced in a declining stock price and lagging the S&P. So for public companies... it depends and the decision is not being made by the people paying the bills, the stockholders.


See my comments in caps

for a privately held company; probably. The cost to acquire, operate and maintain the aircraft is coming right out of the decision makers' pockets. YES, IT IS AND IF THAT DECISION WILL MAKE THE COMPANY MORE EFFECTIVE AND EFFICIENT AND INCREASE PROFITABILITY, IT SHOULD BE AN EASY DECISION. GO BACK TO THE 1870'S AND IMAGINE BEING A RANCHER THAT WANTED TO INCREASE THE SIZE OF HIS RANCH TO MAKE MORE MONEY BUT THAT WOULD MEAN BUYING MORE HORSES OR HE COULD CONTINUE TO USE HIS CURRENT ONES AND HOPE THEY CAN WITHSTAND THE INCREASED WORKLOAD.

For a publicly held company, comes down to convenience and status for the execs. CONVENIENCE SHOULD LEAD TO INCREASED PRODUCTIVITY AND STATUS SHOULD MAKE IT EASIER TO HIRE THE BEST STAFF.

They are not paying for anything. CEO/CFO DECISIONS ARE SCRUTINIZED BASED ON MANY FACTORS INCLUDING PROFITABILITY.

Witness GEs fleet of aircraft, whilst Immelt was destroying value as evidenced in a declining stock price and lagging the S&P. So for public companies... it depends and the decision is not being made by the people paying the bills, the stockholders.[/quote] GE IS NOT A GOOD EXAMPLE OF A CORPORATION TRYING TO IMPROVE PROFITABILITY BY ALLOWING EXECS TO FLY ON CORPORATE JETS SINCE IT DOESN'T JUST OWN BUSINESS JETS; IT ALSO SUPPLIES ENGINES AND OTHER PARTS USED ON SOME BUSINESS JETS. THEY ALSO MAKE JET ENGINES FOR COMMERCIAL PLANES AND FORMERLY HAD A LARGE BUSINESS OF LEASING AIRCRAFT.

Top

 Post subject: Re: $5.5M down and $145k a month for 20 years...
PostPosted: 22 Oct 2018, 13:13 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 01/30/09
Posts: 3343
Post Likes: +1948
Location: $ilicon Vall€y
Aircraft: Columbia 400
Oh, I know there are far more expensive jets out there.

It was just kind of funny to see it broken out like into how much down and how much per month, like a car salesman does. I wonder how much the fabric protection package and undercoating go far. ;)

On the other hand, it does really put it into perspective doesn't it? It doesn't seem to have the impact to say $26.5M as it does to say 20% down and $145,000 a month. That gives you an idea of the money involved - even if you paid cash for it, the cost of money or the value of that investment.

In order for the plane to earn its keep, it really honestly, has to earn more than $145k a month, after paying the crew, fuel, maintenance, taxes, tie-down, fees and so on. For a machine with 9 - 10 seats, that's a hang of a lot of flying per month.

I don't know where I got the number, but I've heard 400hrs a year is about right for business jet. (probably just a thin-air number). That's roughly 35 hours a month, or $4200/hr just to pay the airplane note. Add everything else to that number and I just kind of wonder if it could go for $15,000-$20,000 an hour, to fly. Heck that would make the article's mentioned mid-USA-to-Paris 7hr flight a $140,000 trip.

Kind of amazing, really. Not sure how you dial in the numbers to make it work.

Yes, it beats the airlines from a convenience and comfort standpoint. I've flown enough trans-atlantic business class to readily agree with that. But heck, a full ticket on United Global First was $15k (thank goodness for miles!!!).


Top

 Post subject: Re: $5.5M down and $145k a month for 20 years...
PostPosted: 22 Oct 2018, 13:32 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 05/13/14
Posts: 8310
Post Likes: +6508
Location: Central Texas (KTPL)
Aircraft: PA-46-310P
All this talk of what to do with lotto winnings. I don't play it, but $1.6B has me close to buying a chance.

But if there is only one winner, they will win a full-time job of pruning an out of control fast growing family tree.


Top

 Post subject: Re: $5.5M down and $145k a month for 20 years...
PostPosted: 22 Oct 2018, 13:33 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 11/21/09
Posts: 11865
Post Likes: +14524
Location: Albany, TX
Aircraft: Prior SR22T,V35B,182
I can usually count around 3 jobs per year I'm able to analyze and/or bid due solely to our plane - profit from those jobs could vary substantially, but easily they will play for the plane for that year.

That doesn't count the goodwill and relationship building that being able to meet face to face with little notice with clients and engineers all over the state. My main competitor is just down the road. I guarantee he cannot (does not) provide same day face time to our common customers. It also doesn't take into account my being able to interface with the field - employees, contractors, engineers, and inspectors.

I cannot describe how it makes sense on a scale where "significant" doesn't adequately describe the difference, but I can easily imagine scale can do it. Especially when their brain is more at liberty to be productive sitting in the back, than mine up front.


Top

 Post subject: Re: $5.5M down and $145k a month for 20 years...
PostPosted: 22 Oct 2018, 13:35 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 11/21/09
Posts: 11865
Post Likes: +14524
Location: Albany, TX
Aircraft: Prior SR22T,V35B,182
Username Protected wrote:
All this talk of what to do with lotto winnings. I don't play it, but $1.6B has me close to buying a chance.

But if there is only one winner, they will win a full-time job of pruning an out of control fast growing family tree.

I really think I could keep it unknown. I'd at least love the chance to try!

I guess the problem would be Wendy.... Would I have to tell her? I mean, I'd increase her budget and all. ;)


Top

 Post subject: Re: $5.5M down and $145k a month for 20 years...
PostPosted: 22 Oct 2018, 21:46 
Offline


 Profile




Joined: 03/01/17
Posts: 1052
Post Likes: +615
Location: CA
Aircraft: V35, C150
Username Protected wrote:
But if there is only one winner, they will win a full-time job of pruning an out of control fast growing family tree.


Haha! Very true.

I don’t know who coined the phrase, but it is humorous “Success is relative...the more success, the more relatives.” :lol:


Top

 Post subject: Re: $5.5M down and $145k a month for 20 years...
PostPosted: 22 Oct 2018, 22:28 
Offline


 Profile




Joined: 02/21/15
Posts: 109
Post Likes: +78
Aircraft: C182
Username Protected wrote:
...That's roughly 35 hours a month, or $4200/hr just to pay the airplane note. Add everything else to that number and I just kind of wonder if it could go for $15,000-$20,000 an hour, to fly. ...


I'll bet someone on the list actually does know the cost to operate a super-mid sized. I'd guess it must be around the charter cost. What is that?

I think the cost of capital is like $200K a month? Seems to me hangar/insurance/pilots are all just rounding error. I have no idea what maintenance but for a few years I'm guessing it is all part of the purchase? Depreciation is what...1% a month? So, another $200K a month? (I have no idea of tax advantages, but that would just be like a 30% difference?). So, fixed costs are $400K a month? At 40 hours a month that is $10K a month in fixed costs. Fuel is $1000 an hour? So, again, at $40,000 a month, not much more than a rounding error to the capital cost. For like $11,000 an hour you go like 440nm? So, plus or minus, under $30 a nm. My 1972 Skylane, true fully loaded cost, at 100 hours a year, is $1.50 per nm (which is about what a wet 182 rents for). So this Longitude is under 20 times the cost, carrying 3 times the passengers at 3 times the speed. (If you are packing it mostly full for most of those 480 hours every year). But even ignoring the passenger load, call it perhaps 20 times more expensive per mile for three times the speed. Yeah, pricey, but I can easily imagine someone 20 times richer than me, or a company that really does use it as revenue earning capital.

Can anyone break the real costs down better--I just sort of made numbers up. There must be real aviation financial science here.

(Gonna buy me one of those $1.6B tickets in the morning. I wouldn't mind having to sharpen this calculation a bit. (Hmm, guess if I won actually I wouldn't have to sharpen it at all. Strange thought.))

-Bill


Top

 Post subject: Re: $5.5M down and $145k a month for 20 years...
PostPosted: 23 Oct 2018, 10:18 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 02/22/12
Posts: 2427
Post Likes: +957
Aircraft: G36 turbo normalized
Username Protected wrote:
I can usually count around 3 jobs per year I'm able to analyze and/or bid due solely to our plane - profit from those jobs could vary substantially, but easily they will play for the plane for that year.

That doesn't count the goodwill and relationship building that being able to meet face to face with little notice with clients and engineers all over the state. My main competitor is just down the road. I guarantee he cannot (does not) provide same day face time to our common customers. It also doesn't take into account my being able to interface with the field - employees, contractors, engineers, and inspectors.

I cannot describe how it makes sense on a scale where "significant" doesn't adequately describe the difference, but I can easily imagine scale can do it. Especially when their brain is more at liberty to be productive sitting in the back, than mine up front.


That is a good example of using a plane as a business tool. Here is another one from Alaska. The founders of the tire store credit their purchase of a Cessna 182 with their ability to expand successfully.

http://www.tirereview.com/alyeska-tire- ... -frontier/


Top

 Post subject: Re: $5.5M down and $145k a month for 20 years...
PostPosted: 23 Oct 2018, 10:55 
Online


 Profile




Joined: 01/31/09
Posts: 5233
Post Likes: +3026
Location: Northern NJ
Aircraft: SR22;CJ2+;C510
Cost of capital for a high credit company can be 3% or less. On $25MM that is around $750K/yr or about $65K/mo. If getting people to customers helps close a million$+ sale each month it pays for itself.

Then you have the tax benefits of depreciation that reduce the cash costs.

_________________
Allen


Top

Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic  [ 34 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next




You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  

Terms of Service | Forum FAQ | Contact Us

BeechTalk, LLC is the quintessential Beechcraft Owners & Pilots Group providing a forum for the discussion of technical, practical, and entertaining issues relating to all Beech aircraft. These include the Bonanza (both V-tail and straight-tail models), Baron, Debonair, Duke, Twin Bonanza, King Air, Sierra, Skipper, Sport, Sundowner, Musketeer, Travel Air, Starship, Queen Air, BeechJet, and Premier lines of airplanes, turboprops, and turbojets.

BeechTalk, LLC is not affiliated or endorsed by the Beechcraft Corporation, its subsidiaries, or affiliates. Beechcraft™, King Air™, and Travel Air™ are the registered trademarks of the Beechcraft Corporation.

Copyright© BeechTalk, LLC 2007-2024

.cav-85x50.jpg.
.Wentworth_85x100.JPG.
.daytona.jpg.
.kingairacademy-85x100.png.
.kadex-85x50.jpg.
.lucysaviation-85x50.png.
.dbm.jpg.
.Genesys_85x50.jpg.
.tat-85x100.png.
.planelogix-85x100-2015-04-15.jpg.
.jetacq-85x50.jpg.
.saint-85x50.jpg.
.gallagher_85x50.jpg.
.Wingman 85x50.png.
.boomerang-85x50-2023-12-17.png.
.avionwealth-85x50.png.
.wilco-85x100.png.
.midwest2.jpg.
.pure-medical-85x150.png.
.stanmusikame-85x50.jpg.
.aeroled-85x50-2022-12-06.jpg.
.bullardaviation-85x50-2.jpg.
.blackhawk-85x100-2019-09-25.jpg.
.blackwell-85x50.png.
.CiESVer2.jpg.
.traceaviation-85x150.png.
.chairmanaviation-85x50.jpg.
.jandsaviation-85x50.jpg.
.shortnnumbers-85x100.png.
.airmart-85x150.png.
.bpt-85x50-2019-07-27.jpg.
.one-mile-up-85x100.png.
.wat-85x50.jpg.
.AAI.jpg.
.concorde.jpg.
.ei-85x150.jpg.
.camguard.jpg.
.aircraftferry-85x50.jpg.
.Rocky-Mountain-Turbine-85x100.jpg.
.headsetsetc_Small_85x50.jpg.
.Foreflight_85x50_color.png.
.aviationdesigndouble.jpg.
.centex-85x50.jpg.
.temple-85x100-2015-02-23.jpg.
.ABS-85x100.jpg.
.Marsh.jpg.
.kingairnation-85x50.png.
.tempest.jpg.
.ssv-85x50-2023-12-17.jpg.
.MountainAirframe.jpg.
.sierratrax-85x50.png.
.aircraftassociates-85x50.png.
.pdi-85x50.jpg.
.geebee-85x50.jpg.
.avfab-85x50-2018-12-04.png.
.SCA.jpg.
.Latitude.jpg.