BeechTalk - BT

Username Protected · **Posted:** 12 Oct 2018, 16:43

Does it really produce 375 KTAS at FL410? My Phenom 100 isn't that fast there, and the Mustang is even slower than me there.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 12 Oct 2018, 16:44

Username Protected wrote:

No, not for $4 million. I thought the good price point was between $800K-$1.5M. I am cursed, unfortunately, because I remember the early days. I flew s/n1. I also worked with the 5 Eclipse prototypes. Some of the best times of my life.

Above $2M, there are a lot of good aircraft to choose from in the secondary markets... I think it’s hard to see value competing at this point.

But I still feel they are fantastic airplanes. Don’t knock the Eclipse until you fly one. :woot:

Yeah.... We would all buy a new Eclipse or any other mini jet for $800K-$1.5MM. Hell, I'll take 2. But, of course, the $4MM price tag is what killed them all in the end.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 12 Oct 2018, 18:06

Username Protected wrote:

Does it really produce 375 KTAS at FL410? My Phenom 100 isn't that fast there, and the Mustang is even slower than me there.

In general, Eclipse is faster than TBM, PC-12, KingAir, Mustang and Phenom 100. Not Phenom 300 or HondaJet. But take that with a grain of salt. I had a TBM beat an Eclipse from South Florida to Chicago because the TBM didn’t stop in the middle for fuel.

EDIT

I dug out my old manuals... I stand corrected.

2 engine high speed cruise @ ISA -10, 5000lbs gross weight:

FL250 - 377 KTAS
FL300 - 369
FL350 - 360
FL400 - 359
FL410 - 358

I recall it’s easy to hit redline level at FL290 and below at MCT. VMO is 285 KEAS (KIAS) which was somewhere between 375/385 KTAS.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 12 Oct 2018, 22:56

Username Protected wrote:

Does it really produce 375 KTAS at FL410? My Phenom 100 isn't that fast there, and the Mustang is even slower than me there.

In general, Eclipse is faster than TBM, PC-12, KingAir, Mustang and Phenom 100. Not Phenom 300 or HondaJet. But take that with a grain of salt. I had a TBM beat an Eclipse from South Florida to Chicago because the TBM didn’t stop in the middle for fuel.

EDIT

I dug out my old manuals... I stand corrected.

2 engine high speed cruise @ ISA -10, 5000lbs gross weight:

FL250 - 377 KTAS
FL300 - 369
FL350 - 360
FL400 - 359
FL410 - 358

I recall it’s easy to hit redline level at FL290 and below at MCT. VMO is 285 KEAS (KIAS) which was somewhere between 375/385 KTAS.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 12 Oct 2018, 23:03

Username Protected wrote:

Does it really produce 375 KTAS at FL410? My Phenom 100 isn't that fast there, and the Mustang is even slower than me there.

In general, Eclipse is faster than TBM, PC-12, KingAir, Mustang and Phenom 100. Not Phenom 300 or HondaJet. But take that with a grain of salt. I had a TBM beat an Eclipse from South Florida to Chicago because the TBM didn’t stop in the middle for fuel.

EDIT

I dug out my old manuals... I stand corrected.

2 engine high speed cruise @ ISA -10, 5000lbs gross weight:

FL250 - 377 KTAS
FL300 - 369
FL350 - 360
FL400 - 359
FL410 - 358

I recall it’s easy to hit redline level at FL290 and below at MCT. VMO is 285 KEAS (KIAS) which was somewhere between 375/385 KTAS.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 13 Oct 2018, 03:17

Username Protected wrote:

ISA -10??? where did they get that? Over the North Pole at Midnight in Mid January ;-)

Close. Been there over Chicago.

ISA numbers are similar.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 13 Oct 2018, 04:51

Username Protected wrote:

If I could tear all their crappy avionics and integration out and install some G3X touches and make it an experimental; it might possibly be the best airplane ever made.

Sorry for the thread drift on this question. I’d be fine with a PM to preserve the thread’s topic.

Michael Tarver - Perhaps the statement above was a bit tongue in cheek, but is changing the certificate to an experimental a viable option to accomplish what you would want? Is this process and it’s ramifications something you have knowledge about?

I probably would not do this to my Bonanza in order to preserve its vintage-ness, but I have pondered the thought of going experimental as the support for a legacy fleet continues to get harder to support/upgrade. It would open a new door of possibilities!

Other than potential resale value loss (I’m guessing buyers might be suspicious), are there unforeseen downsides? IFR certification, RVSM (in the case of the jet), etc?

Username Protected · **Posted:** 13 Oct 2018, 09:27

In the U.S. the amateur built experimental has very few significant restrictions.
The other experimental categories have significant limitations.
(Like where you can go and what you can use it for)

In canada I believe that you can turn a certificated plane into an experimental and keep the utility.

There has been some discussion about changing the rules so you could do the same thing in the U.S., I believe there have even been bills/proposals to that effect, but I don't believe its currently on the road map.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 13 Oct 2018, 09:36

Username Protected wrote:

Is this along the lines of the proverbial canary in the coal mine? Typically, the first thing to indicate an economic downturn is aviation and the last thing to recover is aviation.

Funny, that’s what they say about the RV industry. I suspect the boating industry is similar. It’s aboutt discretionary spending.

Sad, because it’s a wonderful plane. My buddy bought one a few years ago for roughly 750 AMU. He has flown the wings of that thing with relatively few problems. I even have a few hours in it. Confusing (to me) panel but feels like flying a fighter plane. Granted, never flown a fighter plane.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 13 Oct 2018, 10:43

The Eclipse is fast in the lower flight levels because it’s 2,000 lbs lighter than a Mustang and 4,000 lbs lighter than a P100. However, it deteriorates up high because of its lower thrust.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 13 Oct 2018, 10:58

Username Protected wrote:

I never saw anything above 360kts TAS in any Eclipse.

Hey Michael, surely you’ve done redline 285 KEAS at the cricket on acceptance test or during delivery at altitude. That’s 375 TAS right there.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 13 Oct 2018, 11:51

If they'd just installed established Garmin avionics, like a G600 and 530W, and redirected those engineers into making an adequate heated pitot and windscreen they would have had a chance at success.

Being too techy killed them.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 13 Oct 2018, 12:03

Username Protected wrote:

I love the airplane but you'd have to be more than a wild eyed optimist, or a broker with listings, to think you've got a more secure investment at any price the third or fourth time around.

The reason you got such a great offer is because of the high risk. My bet is that you missed a great opportunity.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 13 Oct 2018, 12:35

Andy,

Because the offer was so unique I analyzed it very carefully as you might expect. I’m glad I did not buy it.

Hopefully this chapter 11 bankruptcy will result, one way or another, in a more stable parts supply for owners like yourself.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 13 Oct 2018, 12:42

Username Protected wrote:

I never saw anything above 360kts TAS in any Eclipse.

Attachment:

39.JPG

Eclipse takes a dive again