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16 Apr 2024, 11:45 [ UTC - 5; DST ]


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 Post subject: Eclipse takes a dive again
PostPosted: 11 Oct 2018, 16:46 
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Aviation One files bankruptcy
Screws another $450 million in other people’s assets.
Got stung once and a Chapter 11 followed into Chapter 7 Netted only 10% back.
Wouldn’t touch a restructuring...Fool me once!

https://www.flyingmag.com/one-aviation-files-chapter-11

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 Post subject: Re: Eclipse takes a dive again
PostPosted: 11 Oct 2018, 17:29 
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Serious problem with cyclical nature of aero business, especially GA, and timing of bankruptcy.

It is one thing to hit the skids and restructure during a recession. Chances are company can get sorted out and hit its stride on the economic recovery upswing. These guys are hitting BK in the best economy in 10 years. By the time they get moving again, they will have missed a substantial portion of the economic recovery and strong aviation demand. The will have missed the rising tide and be steaming right for the economic low tide.

In cyclical businesses, timing matters.


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 Post subject: Re: Eclipse takes a dive again
PostPosted: 11 Oct 2018, 23:30 
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I'm sure the first voting lienholders want a shot to get their investment back. But.... seems to me they need a major shift in either their business model or execution of said forth model. I cannot see how they can get new money to fix either.

Best option is for someone else to buy the assets for pennies on the dollar and see what makes sense.


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 Post subject: Re: Eclipse takes a dive again
PostPosted: 11 Oct 2018, 23:52 
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Is this along the lines of the proverbial canary in the coal mine? Typically, the first thing to indicate an economic downturn is aviation and the last thing to recover is aviation.


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 Post subject: Re: Eclipse takes a dive again
PostPosted: 12 Oct 2018, 08:06 
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Username Protected wrote:
Is this along the lines of the proverbial canary in the coal mine? Typically, the first thing to indicate an economic downturn is aviation and the last thing to recover is aviation.

Aviation is booming.

Eclipse was a great idea 12-13 years ago. It missed the window. Lot's of mini jets on the market now. It's too late for them.

I wouldn't by Eclipse for "pennies on the dollar". The product is no longer in demand.


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 Post subject: Re: Eclipse takes a dive again
PostPosted: 12 Oct 2018, 08:26 
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Username Protected wrote:
Is this along the lines of the proverbial canary in the coal mine? Typically, the first thing to indicate an economic downturn is aviation and the last thing to recover is aviation.

Aviation is booming.

Eclipse was a great idea 12-13 years ago. It missed the window. Lot's of mini jets on the market now. It's too late for them.

I wouldn't by Eclipse for "pennies on the dollar". The product is no longer in demand.


I was offered a virtually new Eclipse early last summer for 50% of what it sold for new 2 years ago. On the face of it that looked intriguing. But when you consider that it has a reasonable likelihood of sitting on the ground unflyable for months at a time for want of fairly basic and simple parts it's not a bargain at any price. In an aircraft ecosystem where the manufacturer controls all the parts, and the parts suppliers wont sell parts to them, you have an asset with no real value beyond perhaps its scrap value. If you're wealthy enough that losing millions of dollars in value on a tiny airplane over a couple of years is a trifle then maybe the Eclipse is a value. Or if you can afford the time, hassle, aggravation and money to maintain more than one so you can be assured of having something to fly then maybe it's a plane to consider.

To give ONE credit it looks like they are trying to maintain the deposits that owners have given them for upgrades in the filing. It also looks like they've gotten a lot of their creditors to go along with them. So, perhaps they'll emerge from Chapter 11 with a better future. I hope so for the sake of the owners of Eclipse aircraft. The creditors are going to take a truly epic bath - it's stunning to see how much money such a small company has managed to borrow. I have no sympathy for those people they knew what they were doing.

Over the last 30 years governments at all levels have gotten in the business of giving, or loaning, taxpayer money to private businesses. Often the officials that have made the decisions to do so had no clue what they were doing. This certainly looks to be the case in the ONE case. They appear to be the biggest losers.

I love the airplane but you'd have to be more than a wild eyed optimist, or a broker with listings, to think you've got a more secure investment at any price the third or fourth time around.
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 Post subject: Re: Eclipse takes a dive again
PostPosted: 12 Oct 2018, 09:02 
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Turnaround plan:

1) Stop all attempts to make airplanes including the 700 Canada, no one wants a new one of these. Dump all ties to Kestrel.

2) Dump all leases and debt, literally wipe the slate clean.

3) Honor all customer deposits

4) Redesign the crappy pitot probes

5) Focus solely on MRO activities with the first step of chopping parts prices in half.

6) Dump all supplier contracts and allow anyone to buy parts or work on the airplane.

The Monopoly/extortion strategy failed, time to try something different.


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 Post subject: Re: Eclipse takes a dive again
PostPosted: 12 Oct 2018, 09:40 
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Username Protected wrote:
Eclipse was a great idea ...
And that's all it really ever was. The promise of a personal twin jet for under $1M brand new with auto throttles and integrated avionics/systems. Oh, and friction stir welding.

It could have been the biggest GA success ever had they delivered on the original "idea."

I'd love to see the final tally on total dollars invested to date, compared to total revenue. It's amazing that they secured hundreds of millions in additional investments after the first failure.


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 Post subject: Re: Eclipse takes a dive again
PostPosted: 12 Oct 2018, 11:47 
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Username Protected wrote:
Turnaround plan:

1) Stop all attempts to make airplanes including the 700 Canada, no one wants a new one of these. Dump all ties to Kestrel.

2) Dump all leases and debt, literally wipe the slate clean.

3) Honor all customer deposits

4) Redesign the crappy pitot probes

5) Focus solely on MRO activities with the first step of chopping parts prices in half.

6) Dump all supplier contracts and allow anyone to buy parts or work on the airplane.

The Monopoly/extortion strategy failed, time to try something different.


That would be interesting if owners can buy DIRECTLY from the part manufacturers. Old Eclipse/Aerospace was pretty draconian about that.

But will part manufactures really dedicate resources at this point? No new manufactured planes and only 270 out there. The planes are fairly reliable (other than needing to replace fire bottles), so I would imagine there will be only a slim need for parts on a sparse basis.

Shame too, because I love the Eclipse. It doesn’t have the cabin of the PC-12, or the range of the TBMs, or the maturity of the KingAir or Phenoms, but it is a great, fast, CHEAP jet to operate. I’d still buy one. 41,000 ft on only 60gph @ 375 knots. There is still value there.



Warren


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 Post subject: Re: Eclipse takes a dive again
PostPosted: 12 Oct 2018, 12:13 
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Username Protected wrote:
I’d still buy one.

Warren

For $4MM?


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 Post subject: Re: Eclipse takes a dive again
PostPosted: 12 Oct 2018, 12:55 
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So as I understand it, they intend to try to protect owner deposits; good for them.

I have a friend who purchased a 550 a year or so ago, with the understanding that, when the Canada jet was certified, he would receive 100% trade credit toward the purchase of the Canada jet; I wonder if those deals are being honored, as well?

For that matter, I wonder if the Canada jet will ever be completed and certified.

For what it is worth, he really likes his 550.

I remember how exciting it was when first Eclipse flew the prototype EA 500; they were going to revolutionize the industry. I guess all we can do is let out a heavy sigh at what actually happened.

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 Post subject: Re: Eclipse takes a dive again
PostPosted: 12 Oct 2018, 15:05 
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I do think the origional concept of eclipse was a good one.

A fully automated factory with an aircraft designed from the very beginning for
efficient semi-automated production in 1000 units a year quantities, is a really appealing story.

A modern approach to an all electric airplane where the only wires in the airplane
are power and a pair of redundant communications channels (can RS-485 or similar)
IE Radios are mounted at the base of the antennas, power controls and circuit protection are done at point of load only.. etc.. etc...

Spend real $ removing all the hand touch detail labor and one could easily imagine that that a vertically integrated eclipse could match the CIRRUS sales volumes...

We can dream...


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 Post subject: Re: Eclipse takes a dive again
PostPosted: 12 Oct 2018, 15:53 
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Username Protected wrote:
I’d still buy one.

Warren

For $4MM?


No, not for $4 million. I thought the good price point was between $800K-$1.5M. I am cursed, unfortunately, because I remember the early days. I flew s/n1. I also worked with the 5 Eclipse prototypes. Some of the best times of my life.

Above $2M, there are a lot of good aircraft to choose from in the secondary markets... I think it’s hard to see value competing at this point.

But I still feel they are fantastic airplanes. Don’t knock the Eclipse until you fly one. :woot:

[youtube]https://youtu.be/qotNCdltX5Q[/youtube]
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 Post subject: Re: Eclipse takes a dive again
PostPosted: 12 Oct 2018, 16:12 
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I too flew one and was caught up with the early hype. Was going to move up from the P-Baron, but was tempered with reality. When Day Jet began entering into contracts, their escrow agreement was changed to the point one just sent money when they asked for it with no benchmarks. One couldn't sell their position without offering it to Eclipse first, etc. Loved the concept and plane. Really wish they could have pulled it off.

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 Post subject: Re: Eclipse takes a dive again
PostPosted: 12 Oct 2018, 16:36 
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I read this article too.

As an enthusiast, it makes me sad because I root for all things aviation. And in the fantasy land of dreaming about future airplanes, this would make a great little family flyer!

From the comfort of my armchair QB (chair?), I couldn’t help but think this has been coming for a while for the following reasons:

1) The alignment of Eclipse and Kestrel - this seemed like two products that are closer to competitors than comprising a full product line. The specs of the two planes offer more similarities than distinctions.

Another way to put it - which was the flagship product?

1b) With two projects in infancy (Eclipse 700 and Kestrel), how do you prioritize resources, both financial and engineering, in bringing the products to certification?

2) Remember when they announced the construction of the grandiose factory in Maine? They hadn’t sold a plane yet. I speculate of course, but it seems they made their overhead really high without the cash flow to cover.

3) Then there were also the news articles about disputes over rent and such.

Like I say, just arm chair QB’ing, so take it with a grain of salt.


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