banner
banner

28 Mar 2024, 10:24 [ UTC - 5; DST ]


Concorde Battery (banner)



Reply to topic  [ 109 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8  Next
Username Protected Message
 Post subject: Re: Best T-prop <600K MU2, Commander, Merlin....???
PostPosted: 10 Oct 2018, 17:23 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 11/08/13
Posts: 1913
Post Likes: +1167
Location: KCRQ
Aircraft: Breeezy, 182,601P
Wow the 501 looks nice. I've spent WAY more than that in the last year on the A*


Top

 Post subject: Re: Best T-prop <600K MU2, Commander, Merlin....???
PostPosted: 10 Oct 2018, 17:45 
Offline


User avatar
 WWW  Profile




Joined: 03/23/08
Posts: 6908
Post Likes: +3552
Company: AssuredPartners Aerospace Phx.
Location: KDVT, 46U
Aircraft: IAR823, LrJet, 240Z
Username Protected wrote:
..
Mits 100 hours are $10K right? If you fly 200 hours a year, that's $20K a year in inspections.


Actually you would do a 100 / 200 / 1 year / 2 year like we just did
Then only a quick additional 100hr to get through 200 hrs / year.

Ours was $10k this year in part because we flew the plane to TN from AZ for the inspection, replaced HSI, Radar RT, some door seals and stuff like that.

I've done the 100hr myself. Its not too bad except for going through like 7 tubes of different greases with 3 different tips and brushes. Its a mess.

_________________
Tom Johnson-Az/Wy
AssuredPartners Aerospace Insurance
Tj.Johnson@AssuredPartners.com
C: 602-628-2701


Top

 Post subject: Re: Best T-prop <600K MU2, Commander, Merlin....???
PostPosted: 10 Oct 2018, 21:27 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 03/03/11
Posts: 1845
Post Likes: +1819
Aircraft: Piaggio Avanti
I think 20k per year is a good estimate for the mu2 flying 200 hours.

I was told by the various shops that the inspections never come out to the base numbers. I confirmed that with a few operators too. Could just be the folks out here. There were actually only a few shops that even wanted to quote the old cessnas.


Top

 Post subject: Re: Best T-prop <600K MU2, Commander, Merlin....???
PostPosted: 10 Oct 2018, 21:48 
Offline



 Profile




Joined: 05/05/09
Posts: 4946
Post Likes: +4779
Aircraft: G44, C501, C55, R66
Username Protected wrote:
I think 20k per year is a good estimate for the mu2 flying 200 hours.

I was told by the various shops that the inspections never come out to the base numbers. I confirmed that with a few operators too. Could just be the folks out here. There were actually only a few shops that even wanted to quote the old cessnas.


I think $12K a year is a reasonable number for a sorted out legacy Citation. There's honestly nothing serious to break on them. Sure, you are going to have bad years like any airplane but 12K is a decent metric to plan with.


Top

 Post subject: Re: Best T-prop <600K MU2, Commander, Merlin....???
PostPosted: 10 Oct 2018, 23:39 
Offline


 Profile




Joined: 05/31/13
Posts: 1227
Post Likes: +598
Company: Docking Drawer
Location: KCCR
Aircraft: C425
Quote:
I think $12K a year is a reasonable number for a sorted out legacy Citation


Sorry, just lurking on this thread and saw this. I have to ask how you arrived at this number. Do you mean the total maintenance bill (inspections + other required mx) for 100 - 150 hours of flying/year in a legacy citation is $12K? I don't own a citation so I cannot say it's impossible, but I own a C425 and I can say that for sure, with concrete certainty, $12K is totally impossible. And that not because my 425 breaks so often, or that the inspections are super onerous. It's just the facts of life when owning a turbine or even a piston twin for that matter. Please clarify because if $12K per year is true then I may be in the market for a citation.

_________________
ATP, CFI-I, MEI
http://www.dockingdrawer.com


Top

 Post subject: Re: Best T-prop <600K MU2, Commander, Merlin....???
PostPosted: 11 Oct 2018, 00:43 
Offline



 Profile




Joined: 12/24/09
Posts: 1116
Post Likes: +198
Company: Desert Air Inc.
Location: Phoenix, AZ (KDVT)
Aircraft: 1982 King Air 90
Username Protected wrote:
I'd get this Blackhawk KingAir or one like it... https://www.controller.com/listings/air ... ng-air-e90


IIRC the E90 Holds about 90 gallons more than the C90, approx 474 gallons. Should run in the 250 to 260 KTAS with -135As flt level 190-250 on usual day. Would expect about 1200 nm range or better. Anticipate 250 lbs pounds per side per hour at FTL 250 with 250 KTAS. I've seen those numbers (triple 250) many times.

This is based on performance of my C90 with same engines and cowls but less fuel. Trade up to AA pitot cowls and it should do even better. Just wish that they were newer air frames. Air frame should be about 6650#. With GWI to 10500# and full fuel it will carry about 675# in passengers etc. Leave out 90 gallons of fuel and you could fill the seats.

RM
_________________
Rick Mishler
Desert Air, Inc.
Phoenix, AZ


Top

 Post subject: Re: Best T-prop <600K MU2, Commander, Merlin....???
PostPosted: 11 Oct 2018, 01:13 
Offline



User avatar
 WWW  Profile




Joined: 06/28/09
Posts: 14128
Post Likes: +9073
Location: Walnut Creek, CA (KCCR)
Aircraft: 1962 Twin Bonanza
Username Protected wrote:
Should run in the 250 to 260 KTAS with -135As flt level 190-250 on usual day.


Blackhawk says 270+ which was inline with the C90B Blackhawk I used to fly... would see 265-270 at 25k. Is the E90 airframe slower?

_________________
http://calipilot.com
atp/cfii


Top

 Post subject: Re: Best T-prop <600K MU2, Commander, Merlin....???
PostPosted: 11 Oct 2018, 08:24 
Offline



 Profile




Joined: 05/05/09
Posts: 4946
Post Likes: +4779
Aircraft: G44, C501, C55, R66
Username Protected wrote:
Quote:
I think $12K a year is a reasonable number for a sorted out legacy Citation


Sorry, just lurking on this thread and saw this. I have to ask how you arrived at this number. Do you mean the total maintenance bill (inspections + other required mx) for 100 - 150 hours of flying/year in a legacy citation is $12K? I don't own a citation so I cannot say it's impossible, but I own a C425 and I can say that for sure, with concrete certainty, $12K is totally impossible. And that not because my 425 breaks so often, or that the inspections are super onerous. It's just the facts of life when owning a turbine or even a piston twin for that matter. Please clarify because if $12K per year is true then I may be in the market for a citation.


Go back a few posts, you'll need to print my SierraTrax Report along with the defunct Sierra price list (slightly old but still accurate). This will start the educational process of understanding Citation inspections, when they are due and what they cost. You can do your own research on the subject but the cost of three years worth of phase inspections is $25-30K and the cost of the interim stuff (RVSM checks, fire bottles, etc.) is somewhat of a rounding era. Sure, stuff is going to break but it's not going to break often.

I know nothing about C425s, what's the inspection program and cost of these? Is the SID issue sorted out? Educate us.


Top

 Post subject: Re: Best T-prop <600K MU2, Commander, Merlin....???
PostPosted: 11 Oct 2018, 09:51 
Offline



 Profile




Joined: 12/24/09
Posts: 1116
Post Likes: +198
Company: Desert Air Inc.
Location: Phoenix, AZ (KDVT)
Aircraft: 1982 King Air 90
Username Protected wrote:
Should run in the 250 to 260 KTAS with -135As flt level 190-250 on usual day.


Blackhawk says 270+ which was inline with the C90B Blackhawk I used to fly... would see 265-270 at 25k. Is the E90 airframe slower?
pre -1984 bird. lack of pitot cowls is major difference.
_________________
Rick Mishler
Desert Air, Inc.
Phoenix, AZ


Top

 Post subject: Re: Best T-prop <600K MU2, Commander, Merlin....???
PostPosted: 11 Oct 2018, 12:13 
Offline


 Profile




Joined: 05/31/13
Posts: 1227
Post Likes: +598
Company: Docking Drawer
Location: KCCR
Aircraft: C425
OK Michael thanks I didn't see that post with the Sierra inspection costs. I looked at it and if I am reading it correctly, and assuming you fly 150 hours/year, then you alternate between a light MX year and a heavy MX year. So for example, in year one you do phases 1-4 which according to Sierra totals about $10K. That's just inspection costs so you pay additional for whatever is broken. Then in year 2 you do a phase B which is $1000, plus anything that needs to be fixed. On top of that, you would pay for any of the other 50 or so phases which could be due depending on hours, calendar, etc. Does that sound about right? So not including the additional phases your regular, recurring inspection costs would average out at $5.5K per year assuming 150 hours per year. Sound about right?

The 425 is similar. There are 3 regular, recurring inspections: Phase 2, 3, and D. Assuming 150 hours per year in year 1 (the heavy year) you would do a 2,3,D and then another phase 2 (phase 2 is due every 100 hours). Then in year 2 (your light year) you would do a 2 and 3, and then midway through another 2. Here are the costs:

Phase 2,3,D flat rate inspection at Signature Technicair (top shop for Conquests along with Weststar, located in CA): $9800

Phase 2,3 flat rate: $3800

Phase 2 flat rate: $1900

So not including the additional phases your regular, recurring inspection costs average out at $7750 per year assuming 150 hours per year. A little more than for the citation, but some of that is probably being based in CA and paying a high end shop that's owned by a public company (BBA). But then you have to add in the additional phases (the SIDs) which are similar in scope to the citation or maybe a bit more involved. There's also a CPCP (corrosion) which has required inspections every 2,3, and 5 years. The 2 and 3 year inspections are <$1K but the 5 year is around $5K. The rule of thumb my shop uses is to triple the flat rate inspection cost and that is about what the out the door cost is every year assuming you do a few SIDs each year and a few things break (but nothing really expensive) and consumables (gaskets, o rings, oil analysis, filters, and the "hazmat/misc shop supplies" fees). So like this (again, for 150 hours/year and rounding to the nearest thousand):

year 1 (2,3,D plus 2) = $30K + $6K = $36K
year 2 (2,3 plus 2) = $12K + $6K = $18K

Average real world MX for a 425 at a top shop assuming nothing really expensive breaks like a windshield or a flow pack = $27K per year. But my airplane is 35 years old and I have had some expensive items go in the first 2.5 years of ownership. Here's a few:

flow pack $10K
fuel controller $10K
fuel leaks $8K
door seal $2K
stall vane $2K
SG overhauls $4K

Anyway some of those items can be attributed to by a new (used) airplane and getting it sorted out. Actually I spent probably $75K total in the first year on catch up MX (not including upgrades) which I think would be easy to do on any newly purchased 35 year old turbine assuming you want it totally squawk free, rigged correctly, no fuel leaks, no pressurization leaks, etc. But things have settled down now and I'm not doing anything like that anymore. Still, the conclusion is that there's no way you are going to operate a 425 on less than $27K in MX per year for 150 hours. In reality it's even more if you include the inevitable upgrade here and there (it is 35 years old) and the occasional expensive fix. If you budgeted $35K/yr you wouldn't be disappointed in most years. That's why I can't understand how given the same set of assumptions you could maintain a jet for a third of that.

_________________
ATP, CFI-I, MEI
http://www.dockingdrawer.com


Top

 Post subject: Re: Best T-prop <600K MU2, Commander, Merlin....???
PostPosted: 11 Oct 2018, 12:49 
Offline


 Profile




Joined: 07/23/13
Posts: 120
Post Likes: +132
Username Protected wrote:
OK Michael thanks I didn't see that post with the Sierra inspection costs. I looked at it and if I am reading it correctly, and assuming you fly 150 hours/year, then you alternate between a light MX year and a heavy MX year. So for example, in year one you do phases 1-4 which according to Sierra totals about $10K. That's just inspection costs so you pay additional for whatever is broken. Then in year 2 you do a phase B which is $1000, plus anything that needs to be fixed. On top of that, you would pay for any of the other 50 or so phases which could be due depending on hours, calendar, etc. Does that sound about right? So not including the additional phases your regular, recurring inspection costs would average out at $5.5K per year assuming 150 hours per year. Sound about right?

The 425 is similar. There are 3 regular, recurring inspections: Phase 2, 3, and D. Assuming 150 hours per year in year 1 (the heavy year) you would do a 2,3,D and then another phase 2 (phase 2 is due every 100 hours). Then in year 2 (your light year) you would do a 2 and 3, and then midway through another 2. Here are the costs:

Phase 2,3,D flat rate inspection at Signature Technicair (top shop for Conquests along with Weststar, located in CA): $9800

Phase 2,3 flat rate: $3800

Phase 2 flat rate: $1900

So not including the additional phases your regular, recurring inspection costs average out at $7750 per year assuming 150 hours per year. A little more than for the citation, but some of that is probably being based in CA and paying a high end shop that's owned by a public company (BBA). But then you have to add in the additional phases (the SIDs) which are similar in scope to the citation or maybe a bit more involved. There's also a CPCP (corrosion) which has required inspections every 2,3, and 5 years. The 2 and 3 year inspections are <$1K but the 5 year is around $5K. The rule of thumb my shop uses is to triple the flat rate inspection cost and that is about what the out the door cost is every year assuming you do a few SIDs each year and a few things break (but nothing really expensive) and consumables (gaskets, o rings, oil analysis, filters, and the "hazmat/misc shop supplies" fees). So like this (again, for 150 hours/year and rounding to the nearest thousand):

year 1 (2,3,D plus 2) = $30K + $6K = $36K
year 2 (2,3 plus 2) = $12K + $6K = $18K

Average real world MX for a 425 at a top shop assuming nothing really expensive breaks like a windshield or a flow pack = $27K per year. But my airplane is 35 years old and I have had some expensive items go in the first 2.5 years of ownership. Here's a few:

flow pack $10K
fuel controller $10K
fuel leaks $8K
door seal $2K
stall vane $2K
SG overhauls $4K

Anyway some of those items can be attributed to by a new (used) airplane and getting it sorted out. Actually I spent probably $75K total in the first year on catch up MX (not including upgrades) which I think would be easy to do on any newly purchased 35 year old turbine assuming you want it totally squawk free, rigged correctly, no fuel leaks, no pressurization leaks, etc. But things have settled down now and I'm not doing anything like that anymore. Still, the conclusion is that there's no way you are going to operate a 425 on less than $27K in MX per year for 150 hours. In reality it's even more if you include the inevitable upgrade here and there (it is 35 years old) and the occasional expensive fix. If you budgeted $35K/yr you wouldn't be disappointed in most years. That's why I can't understand how given the same set of assumptions you could maintain a jet for a third of that.


I agree with Scott. My 2017 and 2018 mx expenses to run my 425 have been -

Fuel leak IRAN- $1,870
Phase 2,3, Phase 62 -$7,899
Strut Overhaul - $2,825
Phase 2 - $3,122
Strobe replacement(whelen) - $1,808
Phase 2, 3, D, Phase 11 - $14,212
Phase 2, Fire bottles, misc - $5,820
Misc $4,850

I use a local shop with 425 experience and this covered approx 275 hrs of usage, so $154/hr for all mx activities over 21 months or $24.2k annualized.


Top

 Post subject: Re: Best T-prop <600K MU2, Commander, Merlin....???
PostPosted: 11 Oct 2018, 18:33 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 10/21/12
Posts: 1643
Post Likes: +518
Location: SW USA
Aircraft: Lowly renter
Username Protected wrote:
I would say the opposite is true. The Commander is easy to fly but I wouldn't call it fun. Kind of boring, actually. The Merlin/Metro is the most fun because you really need to have your head in the game.

Anyway...just opinions.


That's a very good point! Plus, you can cancel that gym membership and style have forearms like Popeye! :lol:


beep-beep


beep-beep-beep


beep


beep-beep
_________________
Signature intentionally left blank. Do not read this.


Top

 Post subject: Re: Best T-prop <600K MU2, Commander, Merlin....???
PostPosted: 12 Oct 2018, 08:06 
Offline


 Profile




Joined: 11/24/12
Posts: 106
Post Likes: +21
Aircraft: B-55, cheyenneII
CheyenneII best bang for the buck 255 kts abt 500k simple systems no reoccurring inspections


Top

 Post subject: Re: Best T-prop <600K MU2, Commander, Merlin....???
PostPosted: 12 Oct 2018, 09:07 
Offline



 Profile




Joined: 05/05/09
Posts: 4946
Post Likes: +4779
Aircraft: G44, C501, C55, R66
Username Protected wrote:
OK Michael thanks I didn't see that post with the Sierra inspection costs. I looked at it and if I am reading it correctly, and assuming you fly 150 hours/year, then you alternate between a light MX year and a heavy MX year. So for example, in year one you do phases 1-4 which according to Sierra totals about $10K. That's just inspection costs so you pay additional for whatever is broken. Then in year 2 you do a phase B which is $1000, plus anything that needs to be fixed. On top of that, you would pay for any of the other 50 or so phases which could be due depending on hours, calendar, etc. Does that sound about right? So not including the additional phases your regular, recurring inspection costs would average out at $5.5K per year assuming 150 hours per year. Sound about right?

The 425 is similar. There are 3 regular, recurring inspections: Phase 2, 3, and D. Assuming 150 hours per year in year 1 (the heavy year) you would do a 2,3,D and then another phase 2 (phase 2 is due every 100 hours). Then in year 2 (your light year) you would do a 2 and 3, and then midway through another 2. Here are the costs:

Phase 2,3,D flat rate inspection at Signature Technicair (top shop for Conquests along with Weststar, located in CA): $9800

Phase 2,3 flat rate: $3800

Phase 2 flat rate: $1900

So not including the additional phases your regular, recurring inspection costs average out at $7750 per year assuming 150 hours per year. A little more than for the citation, but some of that is probably being based in CA and paying a high end shop that's owned by a public company (BBA). But then you have to add in the additional phases (the SIDs) which are similar in scope to the citation or maybe a bit more involved. There's also a CPCP (corrosion) which has required inspections every 2,3, and 5 years. The 2 and 3 year inspections are <$1K but the 5 year is around $5K. The rule of thumb my shop uses is to triple the flat rate inspection cost and that is about what the out the door cost is every year assuming you do a few SIDs each year and a few things break (but nothing really expensive) and consumables (gaskets, o rings, oil analysis, filters, and the "hazmat/misc shop supplies" fees). So like this (again, for 150 hours/year and rounding to the nearest thousand):

year 1 (2,3,D plus 2) = $30K + $6K = $36K
year 2 (2,3 plus 2) = $12K + $6K = $18K

Average real world MX for a 425 at a top shop assuming nothing really expensive breaks like a windshield or a flow pack = $27K per year. But my airplane is 35 years old and I have had some expensive items go in the first 2.5 years of ownership. Here's a few:

flow pack $10K
fuel controller $10K
fuel leaks $8K
door seal $2K
stall vane $2K
SG overhauls $4K

Anyway some of those items can be attributed to by a new (used) airplane and getting it sorted out. Actually I spent probably $75K total in the first year on catch up MX (not including upgrades) which I think would be easy to do on any newly purchased 35 year old turbine assuming you want it totally squawk free, rigged correctly, no fuel leaks, no pressurization leaks, etc. But things have settled down now and I'm not doing anything like that anymore. Still, the conclusion is that there's no way you are going to operate a 425 on less than $27K in MX per year for 150 hours. In reality it's even more if you include the inevitable upgrade here and there (it is 35 years old) and the occasional expensive fix. If you budgeted $35K/yr you wouldn't be disappointed in most years. That's why I can't understand how given the same set of assumptions you could maintain a jet for a third of that.


Thank you! Very interesting. The old (or new) Citations are no where near this expensive to maintain. The 425 inspection costs would be painful to stomach.


Top

 Post subject: Re: Best T-prop <600K MU2, Commander, Merlin....???
PostPosted: 12 Oct 2018, 09:29 
Offline


 Profile




Joined: 05/31/13
Posts: 1227
Post Likes: +598
Company: Docking Drawer
Location: KCCR
Aircraft: C425
Quote:
Thank you! Very interesting. The old (or new) Citations are no where near this expensive to maintain. The 425 inspection costs would be painful to stomach.

The base inspection costs for the 425 (about $7.8k per year) are not that different than the Citation ($5.5K per year). The 425 may have a little more cost as it has a few more random phase inspections but again, not that much. On average I maybe spend $2-$3K per year on random SIDs or MSB's that need to be done. They are usually pretty minor. But are you saying that the Citation doesn't have so many things that break? You don't replace a cabin window (at $2500 installed) every other year or so? A flight control cable doesn't have to be replaced every several years? Air conditioning doesn't ever need service? You are saying that $12K in maintenance total is the average you spend? An engine gauge doesn't ever need to be sent out for repair? There are never flight instruments to be overhauled? The shop I use also services a lot of citations and when I was battling fuel leaks I asked if other airplanes leaked too and I pointed to a citation. The director of maintenance just laughed and he said they fix fuel leaks in citations all the time too. I'm just trying to understand how the Citation can be so much more reliable when it has a lot of similar parts as the conquest.

_________________
ATP, CFI-I, MEI
http://www.dockingdrawer.com


Top

Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic  [ 109 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8  Next




You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  

Terms of Service | Forum FAQ | Contact Us

BeechTalk, LLC is the quintessential Beechcraft Owners & Pilots Group providing a forum for the discussion of technical, practical, and entertaining issues relating to all Beech aircraft. These include the Bonanza (both V-tail and straight-tail models), Baron, Debonair, Duke, Twin Bonanza, King Air, Sierra, Skipper, Sport, Sundowner, Musketeer, Travel Air, Starship, Queen Air, BeechJet, and Premier lines of airplanes, turboprops, and turbojets.

BeechTalk, LLC is not affiliated or endorsed by the Beechcraft Corporation, its subsidiaries, or affiliates. Beechcraft™, King Air™, and Travel Air™ are the registered trademarks of the Beechcraft Corporation.

Copyright© BeechTalk, LLC 2007-2024

.aviationdesigndouble.jpg.
.shortnnumbers-85x100.png.
.cav-85x50.jpg.
.AAI.jpg.
.aeroled-85x50-2022-12-06.jpg.
.Foreflight_85x50_color.png.
.ssv-85x50-2023-12-17.jpg.
.temple-85x100-2015-02-23.jpg.
.sierratrax-85x50.png.
.planelogix-85x100-2015-04-15.jpg.
.CiESVer2.jpg.
.chairmanaviation-85x50.jpg.
.traceaviation-85x150.png.
.jetacq-85x50.jpg.
.saint-85x50.jpg.
.concorde.jpg.
.kadex-85x50.jpg.
.blackwell-85x50.png.
.bullardaviation-85x50-2.jpg.
.midwest2.jpg.
.MountainAirframe.jpg.
.tat-85x100.png.
.wilco-85x100.png.
.Wingman 85x50.png.
.stanmusikame-85x50.jpg.
.blackhawk-85x100-2019-09-25.jpg.
.one-mile-up-85x100.png.
.Latitude.jpg.
.Genesys_85x50.jpg.
.pure-medical-85x150.png.
.gallagher_85x50.jpg.
.tempest.jpg.
.aircraftassociates-85x50.png.
.avfab-85x50-2018-12-04.png.
.ei-85x150.jpg.
.centex-85x50.jpg.
.jandsaviation-85x50.jpg.
.kingairacademy-85x100.png.
.geebee-85x50.jpg.
.bpt-85x50-2019-07-27.jpg.
.camguard.jpg.
.daytona.jpg.
.Wentworth_85x100.JPG.
.boomerang-85x50-2023-12-17.png.
.headsetsetc_Small_85x50.jpg.
.SCA.jpg.
.lucysaviation-85x50.png.
.airmart-85x150.png.
.dbm.jpg.
.Marsh.jpg.
.aircraftferry-85x50.jpg.
.Rocky-Mountain-Turbine-85x100.jpg.
.kingairnation-85x50.png.
.wat-85x50.jpg.
.ABS-85x100.jpg.
.pdi-85x50.jpg.
.avionwealth-85x50.png.