18 Apr 2024, 22:25 [ UTC - 5; DST ]
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Post subject: Re: Best T-prop <600K MU2, Commander, Merlin....??? Posted: 13 Oct 2018, 10:32 |
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Joined: 05/31/13 Posts: 1235 Post Likes: +602 Company: Docking Drawer Location: KCCR
Aircraft: C425
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I've heard the same thing about TBM's although I don't have first hand knowledge. I do know a guy who researched them thoroughly in preparation to buy and even went through initial training. During training he talked to some people about MX and got scared away. He ended up buying a conquest I.
All the "big bore" PT6's like the ones in the PC12 and TBM are roughly double the cost to overhaul compared to a "small bore" PT6 like the conquest. Accessories are double too. For example, a PT6-112 (conquest) FCU is $6500 for OHE but on a -67 (PC12) is like $12K+ I've heard. And in low utilization aircraft the FCU usually needs to be done well before overhaul. Just an example.
_________________ ATP, CFI-I, MEI http://www.dockingdrawer.com
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Post subject: Re: Best T-prop <600K MU2, Commander, Merlin....??? Posted: 13 Oct 2018, 14:07 |
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Joined: 12/19/09 Posts: 332 Post Likes: +272 Company: Premier Bone and Joint Location: Wyoming
Aircraft: BE90,HUSK,MU-2
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Our company currently operates planes with 6 P&W -21’s, 2 P&W -135’s (on 4 C90A’s) and 2 TPE 331-10’s (MU-2B-25). TAS is about 235-245 (-21), 265-270 (-135), and 300-320 (TPE). Our -21’s have cost $150-200K for OH, we haven’t done the TPE or -135 but expect $250K for the -10 TPE, and $250-300K for the -135. Maintenance on the MU-2 airframe has been roughly 1/2 of the KA planes, but underwriters won’t offer high coverage on the MU-2 like they will for the KA. I would disagree that overhauling a legacy turbine makes no sense. The run-out plane has limited value on the market and if you overhaul the engines (as we have several times) you get to keep operating a plane on which you have been solely responsible for operations and avionics/interior upgrades for many years or in some cases, since the plane was new.
_________________ Thomas
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Post subject: Re: Best T-prop <600K MU2, Commander, Merlin....??? Posted: 15 Oct 2018, 23:57 |
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Joined: 11/22/12 Posts: 2595 Post Likes: +2352 Company: Retired Location: Lynnwood, WA (KPAE)
Aircraft: 1993 Bonanza A36TN
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Username Protected wrote: I'm thinking about the older TBM's … But an overhaul on that is a $500K deal ... and they can not be put on MORE. … that kind overhaul cost at 3600hrs... They don't need MORE, TBO is not regulatory for SETP like the TBM. Craig Craft get 10,000-14,000 hours out of his PT6s.
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Post subject: Re: Best T-prop <600K MU2, Commander, Merlin....??? Posted: 17 Oct 2018, 08:23 |
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Joined: 05/23/08 Posts: 6059 Post Likes: +703 Location: CMB7, Ottawa, Canada
Aircraft: TBM - C185 - T206
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OWT Not anymore than any other newer turboprop that it competes with. The TBM mx as evolved a lot over the years as fleet is closing on 1000 aircraft worldwide. -gears are on long life and are inspections only. -actuators are 10 years now. -inspections intervals are on 200 hrs basis now. -brakes are inspection & repair only and no need to be overhauled. -fuselage inspection went from 10 to 14 years interval and a lot of parts like hoses are inspection only. Most parts in North America are shipped directly from Pompano beach, FL. Lots of parts now can be sourced or overhauled directly from US suppliers. Any of these inspection don't need to be followed as part 91 in the US and I would say most 700A are operating like this. Username Protected wrote: Adam, There was some discussion on the Aerostar board from a previous TBM700 owner. The air frame maintenance on the TBM was outrageous. Everything was single sourced from the factory in France and things like:
replacement fuel gauge was 15K. Mandatory window head resistance test, came in 2% low, 30K for a windshield. Torque Gauge 9K etc.. etc...
_________________ Former Baron 58 owner. Pistons engines are for tractors.
Marc Bourdon
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Post subject: Re: Best T-prop <600K MU2, Commander, Merlin....??? Posted: 17 Oct 2018, 11:36 |
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Joined: 08/24/13 Posts: 8450 Post Likes: +3687 Company: Aviation Tools / CCX Location: KSMQ New Jersey
Aircraft: TBM700C2
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Username Protected wrote: -gears are on long life and are inspections only. -actuators are 10 years now. -inspections intervals are on 200 hrs basis now. -brakes are inspection & repair only and no need to be overhauled. -fuselage inspection went from 10 to 14 years interval and a lot of parts like hoses are inspection only.
Most parts in North America are shipped directly from Pompano beach, FL. Lots of parts now can be sourced or overhauled directly from US suppliers.
Any of these inspection don't need to be followed as part 91 in the US and I would say most 700A are operating like this.
Marc, I'm looking at a 700A that still has the original gear actuators (7 year), doesn't look like they have ever been touched. I suppose the worst it could be is $44,400 for 3 new 10 year actuators if none of them were acceptable cores. How do they usually fail? Do they start leaking?
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Post subject: Re: Best T-prop <600K MU2, Commander, Merlin....??? Posted: 17 Oct 2018, 12:49 |
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Joined: 05/23/08 Posts: 6059 Post Likes: +703 Location: CMB7, Ottawa, Canada
Aircraft: TBM - C185 - T206
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They are usually fine if they don't leak until you take them apart for Ovhl then they have corrosion if the plane as stayed outside or in FL and cannot be reused as cores. Never heard of any failing. I know of some on 1991 A models that are still original. Username Protected wrote: -gears are on long life and are inspections only. -actuators are 10 years now. -inspections intervals are on 200 hrs basis now. -brakes are inspection & repair only and no need to be overhauled. -fuselage inspection went from 10 to 14 years interval and a lot of parts like hoses are inspection only.
Most parts in North America are shipped directly from Pompano beach, FL. Lots of parts now can be sourced or overhauled directly from US suppliers.
Any of these inspection don't need to be followed as part 91 in the US and I would say most 700A are operating like this.
Marc, I'm looking at a 700A that still has the original gear actuators (7 year), doesn't look like they have ever been touched. I suppose the worst it could be is $44,400 for 3 new 10 year actuators if none of them were acceptable cores. How do they usually fail? Do they start leaking?
_________________ Former Baron 58 owner. Pistons engines are for tractors.
Marc Bourdon
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Post subject: Re: Best T-prop <600K MU2, Commander, Merlin....??? Posted: 17 Oct 2018, 13:20 |
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Joined: 08/24/13 Posts: 8450 Post Likes: +3687 Company: Aviation Tools / CCX Location: KSMQ New Jersey
Aircraft: TBM700C2
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Username Protected wrote: Marc,
I'm looking at a 700A that still has the original gear actuators (7 year), doesn't look like they have ever been touched.
I suppose the worst it could be is $44,400 for 3 new 10 year actuators if none of them were acceptable cores.
How do they usually fail? Do they start leaking?
Thanks Marc
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Post subject: Re: Best T-prop <600K MU2, Commander, Merlin....??? Posted: 04 Feb 2020, 08:38 |
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Joined: 12/30/15 Posts: 1702 Post Likes: +1727 Location: Charlotte
Aircraft: Avanti-Citabria
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Username Protected wrote: I mean, crazy value. Yeah, she needs ADS-B, but a friggin Dash 10 engined Merlin III for $200K? For less than $300K, you're in a 285kts plane that can go 2800nm. Bang for buck ratio is insane: https://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/149489657/1973-fairchild-merlin-iiibet a plug nickel I could buy it tomorrow for $150....however....purchase price is just the price of admission...kinda like my wife's $5,000 horse Still mighty tempting...cept for the unknowns
_________________ I wanna go phastR.....and slowR
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Post subject: Re: Best T-prop <600K MU2, Commander, Merlin....??? Posted: 04 Feb 2020, 08:41 |
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Joined: 12/19/11 Posts: 3303 Post Likes: +1424 Company: Bottom Line Experts Location: KTOL - Toledo, OH
Aircraft: 2004 SR22 G2
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Username Protected wrote: I mean, crazy value. Yeah, she needs ADS-B, but a friggin Dash 10 engined Merlin III for $200K? For less than $300K, you're in a 285kts plane that can go 2800nm. Bang for buck ratio is insane: https://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/149489657/1973-fairchild-merlin-iiibet a plug nickel I could buy it tomorrow for $150....however....purchase price is just the price of admission...kinda like my wife's $5,000 horse Still mighty tempting...cept for the unknowns
Smells like another multi-year tprop project to me. It could be free to buy and still eat you alive. What do OH’s on dash 10’s run?
_________________ Don Coburn Corporate Expense Reduction Specialist 2004 SR22 G2
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Post subject: Re: Best T-prop <600K MU2, Commander, Merlin....??? Posted: 04 Feb 2020, 09:22 |
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Joined: 06/17/14 Posts: 5003 Post Likes: +1949 Location: KJYO
Aircraft: C-182, GA-7
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Username Protected wrote: The low cost king air's are slower than the aerostar I'm flying now... <snip>
I occasionally fly an Aerostar with an instructor and it is insane how fast that little plane can go. ...but that nosewheel steering switch takes a few landing cycles and about 20-30 minutes of taxiing to get used to the first time.
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Post subject: Re: Best T-prop <600K MU2, Commander, Merlin....??? Posted: 04 Feb 2020, 09:31 |
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Joined: 11/22/08 Posts: 2921 Post Likes: +928 Company: USAF Propulsion Laboratory Location: Dayton, OH
Aircraft: PA24, AEST 680, 421
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Username Protected wrote: I mean, crazy value. Yeah, she needs ADS-B, but a friggin Dash 10 engined Merlin III for $200K? For less than $300K, you're in a 285kts plane that can go 2800nm. Bang for buck ratio is insane: https://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/149489657/1973-fairchild-merlin-iiiThe engines are high time. Maybe you get lucky and fly far beyond TBO. Otherwise it will be expensive. It is a crazy price. Like some of the Citations out there.
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Post subject: Re: Best T-prop <600K MU2, Commander, Merlin....??? Posted: 04 Feb 2020, 09:38 |
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Joined: 11/08/12 Posts: 12799 Post Likes: +5226 Location: Jackson, MS (KHKS)
Aircraft: 1961 Cessna 172
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Username Protected wrote: It could be free to buy and still eat you alive. What do OH’s on dash 10’s run? n/a You would buy somebody else's high time motors with 600 hours left. Agree everything else could eat you alive.
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Post subject: Re: Best T-prop <600K MU2, Commander, Merlin....??? Posted: 04 Feb 2020, 09:47 |
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Joined: 02/09/09 Posts: 5587 Post Likes: +2546 Location: Owosso, MI (KRNP)
Aircraft: 1969 Bonanza V35A
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The Merlin series aircraft are a great airplane, but like the MU-2, they are not for the guy that's going to fly it once a month. I have about 3000 hours in the long body Merlin's and have taught about 30-40 people to fly them. They are far from an airplane that you go to FlightSafety and then jump in the airplane and fly it home. If you do that, you'll find yourself in a lot of trouble.
But, once you truly learn to fly it, it's an awesome airplane with incredible performance. There is still it no true replacement for the long body airplanes that are as capable and as efficient. If you find a pilot that says they hate the Merlin/Metro series, then they never really learned to fly it and fought it their whole "career" in the type.
Look at the spar AD very close before purchasing. While the airplane will not come apart, it's about 500 man hours for a shop that did a significant number of the repairs. The company I worked for was doing 1:1 customer:ours and were turning an airplane out in about two weeks!
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