29 Apr 2024, 02:38 [ UTC - 5; DST ]
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Post subject: Re: Big Leap.... Debonair to Meridian Posted: 29 Jan 2019, 18:10 |
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Joined: 05/31/13 Posts: 1235 Post Likes: +602 Company: Docking Drawer Location: KCCR
Aircraft: C425
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Quote: The problem is that having that level of discernment in a decades old t-prop I know is going to cost a boatload unless I buy from another discerning owner like yourself. The frustration I had was that I hired supposed "experts" to evaluate the plane before I bought it. Sure, the pre buy did uncover some things which was good, once of them being very expensive. But how does a name brand shop like Yingling let an airplane go after taking $110K when one of the engines doesn't make takeoff RPM? Or none of the panel lights work? Or sealing the fuel tanks only to have them leak 50 hours later? Or how does the pro pilot with thousands of hours in Conquest I's miss the howl coming from behind the panel and the fact that the cabin won't fully pressurize, even though I specifically asked him to check things like that? I noticed the pressurization leak immediately and it was MY FIRST TIME IN A PRESSURIZED GA AIRPLANE for pete's sake. That kind of stuff drives me nuts.
_________________ ATP, CFI-I, MEI http://www.dockingdrawer.com
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Post subject: Re: Big Leap.... Debonair to Meridian Posted: 29 Jan 2019, 18:20 |
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Joined: 12/19/11 Posts: 3303 Post Likes: +1424 Company: Bottom Line Experts Location: KTOL - Toledo, OH
Aircraft: 2004 SR22 G2
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Username Protected wrote: The frustration I had was that I hired supposed "experts" to evaluate the plane before I bought it. Sure, the pre buy did uncover some things which was good, once of them being very expensive. But how does a name brand shop like Yingling let an airplane go after taking $110K when one of the engines doesn't make takeoff RPM? Or none of the panel lights work? Or sealing the fuel tanks only to have them leak 50 hours later? Or how does the pro pilot with thousands of hours in Conquest I's miss the howl coming from behind the panel and the fact that the cabin won't fully pressurize, even though I specifically asked him to check things like that? I noticed the pressurization leak immediately and it was MY FIRST TIME IN A PRESSURIZED GA AIRPLANE for pete's sake. That kind of stuff drives me nuts. I can feel your frustration from here Scott. This is just horror story #238 in my research of a decades old, large t-prop birds, IMO...
_________________ Don Coburn Corporate Expense Reduction Specialist 2004 SR22 G2
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Post subject: Re: Big Leap.... Debonair to Meridian Posted: 29 Jan 2019, 18:25 |
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Joined: 05/31/13 Posts: 1235 Post Likes: +602 Company: Docking Drawer Location: KCCR
Aircraft: C425
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Unfortunately I think that is more or less normal. It doesn't quite qualify as a horror story because I eventually worked out the bugs and now the airplane is easy to own. I think it happens with piston planes too, but the cost magnitude is not quite as high. Thing thing is that planes that are in great shape, flown regularly, and well attended to are not for sale generally. What is for sale, especially in a type with a small fleet size like the conquest, are usually more in the neglected category. A friend bought a conquest I from Canada last year and from the log book entries, you'd think it was like air force one. Super comprehensive entries, no stone left unturned, etc, etc. Then when it showed up at the conquest shop it was a total turd. Nothing worked, totally out of rig, etc. He bought it anyway and the seller conceded quite a bit on price so it worked out. But I think he spent $100K+ just getting the mechanical stuff in order. Then it needed paint, interior, and a panel. No way you'll see that airplane on the market for a very, very long time.
_________________ ATP, CFI-I, MEI http://www.dockingdrawer.com
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Post subject: Re: Big Leap.... Debonair to Meridian Posted: 29 Jan 2019, 18:32 |
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Joined: 12/19/11 Posts: 3303 Post Likes: +1424 Company: Bottom Line Experts Location: KTOL - Toledo, OH
Aircraft: 2004 SR22 G2
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Username Protected wrote: Unfortunately I think that is more or less normal. It doesn't quite qualify as a horror story because I eventually worked out the bugs and now the airplane is easy to own. I think it happens with piston planes too, but the cost magnitude is not quite as high. Thing thing is that planes that are in great shape, flown regularly, and well attended to are not for sale generally. What is for sale, especially in a type with a small fleet size like the conquest, are usually more in the neglected category. In my book it is a horror story. Forget about the amount of $$ on the bill. What time & energy & effort did you spend on the phone conversations, arguments, research, ferries back and forth to the shop, reviewing invoices, downtime and overall hassle factor? The amount of $$ on the invoice is a big factor, no doubt. However, I'm getting to a point where the loss in productivity for the entire hassle is a bigger factor. I look to t-props for the sole reason of going (mostly) annual to annual (or inspection to inspection) with little or no down time, hassle or mx. That alone is worth the added overall cost of ownership. If I have to spend the first 1-2 years getting a bird up to snuff and going back and forth to the shop 1/2 dozen times, then the benefit from my current bird is no longer with it. Trust me. I love all big cabin Cessna's - C421, C425, C441. I truly wish I could make one of them work...
_________________ Don Coburn Corporate Expense Reduction Specialist 2004 SR22 G2
Last edited on 29 Jan 2019, 19:00, edited 1 time in total.
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Post subject: Re: Big Leap.... Debonair to Meridian Posted: 29 Jan 2019, 18:39 |
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Joined: 05/31/13 Posts: 1235 Post Likes: +602 Company: Docking Drawer Location: KCCR
Aircraft: C425
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Quote: I look to t-props for the sole reason of going (mostly) annual to annual (or inspection to inspection) with little or no down time, hassle or mx. That alone is worth the added overall cost of ownership. If I have to spend the first 1-2 years getting a bird up to snuff and going back and forth to the shop 1/2 dozen times, that the benefit from my current bird is no longer with it. Yup, I get it. You can get there but not likely in the first year or two. Look on the bright side, you'll be an expert in type once you're done...
_________________ ATP, CFI-I, MEI http://www.dockingdrawer.com
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Post subject: Re: Big Leap.... Debonair to Meridian Posted: 29 Jan 2019, 18:41 |
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Joined: 12/19/11 Posts: 3303 Post Likes: +1424 Company: Bottom Line Experts Location: KTOL - Toledo, OH
Aircraft: 2004 SR22 G2
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Username Protected wrote: Quote: I look to t-props for the sole reason of going (mostly) annual to annual (or inspection to inspection) with little or no down time, hassle or mx. That alone is worth the added overall cost of ownership. If I have to spend the first 1-2 years getting a bird up to snuff and going back and forth to the shop 1/2 dozen times, that the benefit from my current bird is no longer with it. Yup, I get it. You can get there but not likely in the first year or two. Look on the bright side, you'll be an expert in type once you're done... I think you can at the bottom end of the spectrum: Meridian, Jetprop. When you talk to guys who run those birds, none of them have these types of stories. Sure there's a tradeoff there but the mx and ownership experience appears to be vastly different.
_________________ Don Coburn Corporate Expense Reduction Specialist 2004 SR22 G2
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Post subject: Re: Big Leap.... Debonair to Meridian Posted: 29 Jan 2019, 18:47 |
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Joined: 05/31/13 Posts: 1235 Post Likes: +602 Company: Docking Drawer Location: KCCR
Aircraft: C425
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I think those airplanes just don't quite fall into the "old and somewhat neglected type" category. Meridians are relatively new and there's a lot of them. Jetprops are older but there's a lot of them. And they have somewhat simpler systems so that always helps. If I didn't need the large cabin a Meridian would be perfect.
_________________ ATP, CFI-I, MEI http://www.dockingdrawer.com
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Post subject: Re: Big Leap.... Debonair to Meridian Posted: 29 Jan 2019, 19:13 |
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Joined: 12/19/11 Posts: 3303 Post Likes: +1424 Company: Bottom Line Experts Location: KTOL - Toledo, OH
Aircraft: 2004 SR22 G2
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Username Protected wrote: I think those airplanes just don't quite fall into the "old and somewhat neglected type" category. Meridians are relatively new and there's a lot of them. Jetprops are older but there's a lot of them. And they have somewhat simpler systems so that always helps. If I didn't need the large cabin a Meridian would be perfect. If you need it, you just can't beat the cabin of a big twin Cessna. They are awesome!
_________________ Don Coburn Corporate Expense Reduction Specialist 2004 SR22 G2
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Post subject: Re: Big Leap.... Debonair to Meridian Posted: 29 Jan 2019, 19:52 |
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Joined: 12/03/14 Posts: 19252 Post Likes: +23623 Company: Ciholas, Inc Location: KEHR
Aircraft: C560V
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Username Protected wrote: The problem is that having that level of discernment in a decades old t-prop I know is going to cost a boatload unless I buy from another discerning owner like yourself. Achieving near perfection in a turboprop is a lot easier than in a piston airplane. Things just don't break nearly as often, and I don't just mean the engines, but everything in the airframe is not subject to the constant pounding of a piston engine. Much of the stuff is the same between turboprop and larger piston twin, say 421 versus 441. Radar, avionics, windows, boots, door seals, etc, so you are replacing the piston engines that need attention all the time with turboprops that need almost nothing and aren't shaking your bird apart. If you are the owner that wants the plane showroom perfect all the time, you need to buy new airplanes, although they don't stay that way very long. For an older plane, you can have everything working well, but it may not be perfect. Everything on my plane works fine, though it is in inspection right now, which is the #1 cause of squawks in my experience. All planes are a hassle to maintain sometimes, but with a turboprop, the results are so much more worth it than a piston airplane. Mike C.
_________________ Email mikec (at) ciholas.com
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Post subject: Re: Big Leap.... Debonair to Meridian Posted: 30 Jan 2019, 10:23 |
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Joined: 12/03/14 Posts: 19252 Post Likes: +23623 Company: Ciholas, Inc Location: KEHR
Aircraft: C560V
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Username Protected wrote: I worry that My is geared toward the airline point of view which may not be so good for private owner operators. That should have been "I worry that M7 ...". M7 Aerospace is the TC holder and seems geared towards the airlines still using Metroliners. Mike C.
_________________ Email mikec (at) ciholas.com
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Post subject: Re: Big Leap.... Debonair to Meridian Posted: 03 Feb 2019, 11:24 |
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Joined: 10/06/09 Posts: 873 Post Likes: +46 Company: Baron Partners, Inc Location: Springfield, IL (KSPI)
Aircraft: CE-510 & T34B.
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Username Protected wrote: Everything on my plane works fine, though it is in inspection right now, which is the #1 cause of squawks in my experience.
Mike C.
Amen to that. I'm a firm believer that tearing these planes apart on annual basis leads to nothing more that maintenance induced errors. Ought to be a better way to keep them safe.
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Post subject: Re: Big Leap.... Debonair to Meridian Posted: 24 Mar 2019, 08:59 |
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Joined: 12/03/14 Posts: 19252 Post Likes: +23623 Company: Ciholas, Inc Location: KEHR
Aircraft: C560V
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Username Protected wrote: Everything on my plane works fine, though it is in inspection right now, which is the #1 cause of squawks in my experience. My plane came out of maintenance with zero residual or new squawks. The squawk list was less than one page long, and mostly a few burned out light bulbs and a strobe power supply and an ELT battery. Less than $1K in unexpected costs. So, pretty happy. :-) Once you go turbine, you only go back to piston if absolutely forced to. There's simply no comparison. Mike C.
_________________ Email mikec (at) ciholas.com
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