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19 Apr 2024, 19:42 [ UTC - 5; DST ]


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 Post subject: Cessna 421 Oil Pressure Episode
PostPosted: 18 Jan 2024, 19:43 
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Joined: 06/24/14
Posts: 94
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Location: Fort Worth, TX (KFTW)
Aircraft: C421
421 driver here that's had the airplane for almost 3 years, I've got nearly 400 hours in her.

Here's the scenario:

- Took the family from home base (Fort Worth Meacham) to see my parents and sister in California (specifically John Wayne, KSNA). Had a lovely time in California.

- Was thinking about returning on Sunday (1/14), but saw ice in the forecast over much of Texas, so the return trip was delayed to Monday, (1/15).

- The tailwind from California was pretty good on 1/15, but not enough to justify an attempt at going non-stop, so we stopped in New Mexico (KBRG) for fuel. Uneventful flight.

- Uneventful takeoff, climb, and cruise across New Mexico and Texas...no clouds the entire flight, as it was forecast. Outside temp at 15,000 was -5C. The forecast (and actual) temp in Fort Worth when we landed was -4C...cold day in North Texas. I was expecting a much colder en route temp at 15,000', so I assumed there was a temperature inversion (there was).

- ATC assigned me the Likes 3 arrival into the North Texas area (this is normal coming from the west), and Fort Worth Center gave a crossing restriction for the SLUGG intersection at 5,000 about 45 miles out (also basically normal).

- On the downhill, the computer was telling me that I needed 800 - 900 fpm to hit the crossing restriction. This is higher than my usual/preferred descent rate, but is not an unreasonable "slam dunk." My IAS rose to about 185 on the descent (yellow line starts at 200 and the air was smooth).

- As I got through about 12,000', the outside air temp started dropping quickly...it got down to -16C at some point (I don't recall the altitude). I probably don't recall the altitude because I became focused on my oil pressures, which were dropping during the descent. Normally during a descent, my oil pressures actually tick up a few points (from roughly 45 in cruise to maybe 47 or 48). But they slowly went through the 40s, and by the time I crossed SLUGG at 5,000', the right engine was in the upper 30s (still in the green arc, but not by much), the left engine was slightly below the green. The oil temperatures for both engines, which usually sit around 150 or 160, slowly climbed to nearly 200 (220 is top of the green). All 12 cylinder head temps remained cool as usual during the descent (low 300s).

- SLUGG is 28 nm from Meacham. Fort Worth Spinks (KFWS), which I am familiar with, is even closer. With the speed I had, it was going to be about another 8 - 10 minutes to get to Meacham, and at about SLUGG (where the oil pressures got to their lowest, and oil temps got to their highest), I started to contemplate where I was going to go if I went full dead-stick. The best options I could think of were: (1) Spinks, or (2) the relatively rural and undeveloped areas between SLUGG and Fort Worth. Between Spinks and Meacham is urban with few good options.

- Regional approach cleared me direct to Meacham and pilot's discretion on the descent. I started a very slow descent while watching the engines like a hawk...then the pressures started to rise to where they should and the temperatures started to drop to where they should. I noticed that the outside air temp started to rise, too. By the time I was closer to Meacham than Spinks, it was clear that the engines were happy and that I could make a normal visual approach to Runway 34. And so I did.

So my questions are:

- Anyone ever experienced something like this before descending through a particularly cold layer of air in a temperature inversion? (Maybe not even in a 421, but bonus points if you did in a 421 and have special GTSIO-520 knowledge that applies here).

- Am I wrong altogether to assume this was related/connected/caused-by the layer of cold air I descended through?

- What mistakes did I make / what could I have done better?

- Last possibly relevant points to add to the equation:

(1) Right or wrong, smart or stupid...I start every single flight with 13 quarts (the max) on each engine, including the flight in question.

(2) Without exception, I change the oil on both engines after 25 hours of flight (recurrent training instructor pounds this into his 421 customers, and I follow the advice). After landing in Fort Worth on the flight in question, I had 24.6 hours on the oil...so basically at the end of its shelf life.

And finally, a fair and general question might be: "Maybe try asking on Twin Cessna?" I will. But I've got a lot of respect for the BT community's database/wealth of knowledge so I wanted to start here.

Opinions, anecdotes, old 421 stories, and/or admonishments of my airmanship are all welcome, I'm here to learn and to be better.

Many thanks. :cheers:


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 Post subject: Re: Cessna 421 Oil Pressure Episode
PostPosted: 18 Jan 2024, 20:08 
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Joined: 12/22/07
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Company: Midwest Chemtrails, LLC
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Username Protected wrote:
What mistakes did I make / what could I have done better?


Great write-up!

Both engines, eh? No terrific areas for a forced landing?

If I had innocents aboard or below:

- Arrest the descent to preserve options.
- State the reason.
- Ask for a block altitude.
- If ATC is insufficiently cooperative, PAN or Mayday.
- Arrive over the airport with excess attitude for a shallow spiral, prepared for a power-off approach in the event of power loss.

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Last edited on 18 Jan 2024, 20:20, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Cessna 421 Oil Pressure Episode
PostPosted: 18 Jan 2024, 20:18 
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Joined: 01/24/10
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Location: Concord , CA (KCCR)
Aircraft: 1967 Baron B55
You had a congealed oil cooler. Yes I have had this happen before in Alaska. I have a plate for the oil cooler that I use on my 421C when temps are a problem.


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 Post subject: Re: Cessna 421 Oil Pressure Episode
PostPosted: 18 Jan 2024, 20:22 
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Joined: 08/26/15
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Did anyone else click on this anticipating a new JW video?


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 Post subject: Re: Cessna 421 Oil Pressure Episode
PostPosted: 18 Jan 2024, 20:53 
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Joined: 11/30/12
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Location: Santa Fe, NM (KSAF)
Aircraft: B200, 500B
Not a 421, but a six cylinder Conti...

A 337 doing an Atlantic crossing lost BOTH engines over the North Atlantic when the breather tubes froze, pressure built up, and both engines blew out the crank seal. We only know this because the pilots managed to ditch with one wing ON A FLOE and survived!

Still, I think a congealed oil cooler is more likely in your case.

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 Post subject: Re: Cessna 421 Oil Pressure Episode
PostPosted: 18 Jan 2024, 21:36 
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Joined: 02/27/11
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Location: Virginia
Aircraft: Cessna 421C / P210N
Username Protected wrote:
You had a congealed oil cooler. Yes I have had this happen before in Alaska. I have a plate for the oil cooler that I use on my 421C when temps are a problem.


Hey Gerald - what is the general solution to this if you are caught in particularly cold conditions ? Without having a warmer plate of some sort already installed. Like if he or if you were caught at 20K ft and it was -20 all the way down to 2K, what would be the smart thing to do ? Run the engine as hot as you can with a gradual descent ?


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 Post subject: Re: Cessna 421 Oil Pressure Episode
PostPosted: 18 Jan 2024, 21:58 
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Joined: 12/03/14
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Company: Ciholas, Inc
Location: KEHR
Aircraft: C560V
Username Protected wrote:
Like if he or if you were caught at 20K ft and it was -20 all the way down to 2K, what would be the smart thing to do ? Run the engine as hot as you can with a gradual descent ?

Lower airspeed will reduce oil cooler effectiveness. Slowing down might have helped a bit. Might put the gear out if speed allows and use more engine power at a slower airspeed.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: Cessna 421 Oil Pressure Episode
PostPosted: 18 Jan 2024, 22:11 
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Joined: 03/12/14
Posts: 29
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Aircraft: 421C STOL
What type of oil are you using?


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 Post subject: Re: Cessna 421 Oil Pressure Episode
PostPosted: 18 Jan 2024, 22:13 
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Joined: 06/28/11
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Jeff,

This can be a common problem on 421s: a cold vernatherm creates hot oil. You should add some insulation around the vernatherm portion of the oil cooler. The idea is to ensure that the vernatherm is seeing oil temp rather than air temp.

Call me or email if you would like.

Best,

Dan


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 Post subject: Re: Cessna 421 Oil Pressure Episode
PostPosted: 18 Jan 2024, 22:25 
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Joined: 01/19/16
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Location: 13FA Earle Airpark FL/0A7 Hville NC
Aircraft: E33/152A
Username Protected wrote:
Jeff,

This can be a common problem on 421s: a cold vernatherm creates hot oil. You should add some insulation around the vernatherm portion of the oil cooler. The idea is to ensure that the vernatherm is seeing oil temp rather than air temp.

Call me or email if you would like.

Best,

Dan



That makes more sense to me than a congealed oil cooler. The oil is just bypassing the cooler. If the cooler was congealed then then the hot oil should have cleared it out.


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 Post subject: Re: Cessna 421 Oil Pressure Episode
PostPosted: 18 Jan 2024, 22:32 
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Location: KEHR
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Username Protected wrote:
If the cooler was congealed then then the hot oil should have cleared it out.

If the cooler is so cold it drops the temperature too fast.

No cowl flaps, so in a descent, with low engine power, the oil will cool very quickly n the cooler.

GTSIO-520 engines have large effective oil coolers. The engine makes 375 HP from the same size cylinders as a 300 HP engine, and there are reduction gear losses to reject as well.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: Cessna 421 Oil Pressure Episode
PostPosted: 18 Jan 2024, 22:36 
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Joined: 08/20/09
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Company: Jcrane, Inc.
Location: KVES Greenville, OH
Aircraft: C441, RV7A
Username Protected wrote:
You had a congealed oil cooler. Yes I have had this happen before in Alaska. I have a plate for the oil cooler that I use on my 421C when temps are a problem.

Never experienced this in the 421. Flew quite a few times when temps from takeoff to landing were below -5C. Cruise altitude temps below -20C were common.

Would like to learn more about this...


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 Post subject: Re: Cessna 421 Oil Pressure Episode
PostPosted: 18 Jan 2024, 22:37 
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Joined: 03/12/14
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Aircraft: 421C STOL
A straight grade oil will congeal much quicker than a multi grade oil, maybe consider running the multi grade in the winter and straight grade in the summer.I run 20-50 all year never had any issues in cold temperatures.


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 Post subject: Re: Cessna 421 Oil Pressure Episode
PostPosted: 18 Jan 2024, 23:22 
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Joined: 01/19/16
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Location: 13FA Earle Airpark FL/0A7 Hville NC
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Username Protected wrote:
If the cooler was congealed then then the hot oil should have cleared it out.

If the cooler is so cold it drops the temperature too fast.

No cowl flaps, so in a descent, with low engine power, the oil will cool very quickly n the cooler.

GTSIO-520 engines have large effective oil coolers. The engine makes 375 HP from the same size cylinders as a 300 HP engine, and there are reduction gear losses to reject as well.

Mike C.



The vernatherm controlled bypass is mounted in the cooler header in close proximity to the airflow. I can see how super cooled air flow leaking around the cooler inlet during a high speed descent could adversely affect the vernatherm causing the oil to bypass the oil cooler. This could cause high temp and low oil pressure. Seems less likely that an oil cooler could comgeal from cold oil with oil temp at or near high redline (unless the oil is bypassing the cooler).

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 Post subject: Re: Cessna 421 Oil Pressure Episode
PostPosted: 19 Jan 2024, 00:20 
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Joined: 10/24/19
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Location: Central NY, (N03)
Aircraft: 421C
Hi Jeff,

Nice description! No “mistakes” noted though. I am curious about the power settings that you used (if you can recall), going from cruise at 15k and your descent to 5..? If your CHT’s remained in the low 300’s throughout, then it’s not apparent that you pulled back too much MP. I’d say that you were good. Bottom line - you remained in the green and didn’t cause any shock cooling with those indications. 25 hrs on your oil is well within its life too imo. I know some that go to 50 (not me). I’m a 25-30 hr changer also. I’ve flown often in much colder (minus mid thirties from 25k). But, I do my best to keep the power in on the descents, allow the airspeed climb to the top of the green and adjust from there (one inch of MP at a time). Prevents that shock cooling. I don’t have spoilers on my plane so, it Always helps if ATC allows those descents from FL250 to start about 90-100 miles out too.

Oh, I’m also curious about your oil level after a flight from CA to TX?? I know that you said that you start at 13 qts but, what do you end up with? Are you adding during fuel stops also to keep it at 13? If so, how long are you waiting for it to settle after shutdown before checking the level?
I ask because no matter how much I put it, my engines seem to like the 10 quart level. (9 as you know is the minimum).

John


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