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 Post subject: Piper Lance/Saratoga Forward Facing Seats Dilemma
PostPosted: 02 Sep 2018, 08:25 
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With the beginning of 1978, came the end to the all-forward facing seats in the Piper six-seat aircraft. You can swap the middle seats around in Model 36 and 58 Beechcraft. Does anyone know WHY you can't change the club seating in a later Lance/Saratoga/Seneca to all-forward facing? Is the later floor, or wall, designed differently or something? There is an STC to convert earlier all-forward facing seats to CLUB seating, just not the other way around. ???

Has anyone tried through field approval to modify a later aircraft having CLUB to ALL forward facing seats? Why can't you use an identical, or at least similar, seat rail/widget system and modify them to all-forward? I posed this question to the lead IA of a supposed 'expert' Piper shop near SLC a decade or so ago, and got no real quantifiable answer. I vaguely remember them saying something about Piper just not wanting any liability, but if it's done like or better than the other factory equipment, why would that be an issue? Airframes are modified with much more serious - and un-tested - improvements all the time. :scratch:

Anyone out there tried this, or have any information to share? 'Preciatecha' ~ Mark


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 Post subject: Re: Piper Lance/Saratoga Forward Facing Seats Dilemma
PostPosted: 02 Sep 2018, 15:44 
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Don't know. But I like to sit in them because I feel they are safer should things not go as planned.

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 Post subject: Re: Piper Lance/Saratoga Forward Facing Seats Dilemma
PostPosted: 03 Sep 2018, 08:21 
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I don't see how it would work in my plane. The floor in row 2 is raised and houses all the AP stuff and gear accessories. By flipping the seats, there would be no where for feet. If you pushed the seats back, you'll loose the baggage area. You'd also loose access to the intercom jacks, which are centered on the floor aft of the aft facing seats.

I also "feel" it's a safer place in the case of an auger. Not sure if that is true, but the whiplash effect certainly may be reduced during deceleration.


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 Post subject: Re: Piper Lance/Saratoga Forward Facing Seats Dilemma
PostPosted: 03 Sep 2018, 17:03 
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You can't just turn the seats around, which some have done going to all forward to (not legal) club seating. The seat frames are different, the floor panel and attaching points are different, the seat belt anchors are different.

I liked the forward facing seats as came in my Seneca II. I had considered installing the club seats, but discovered that it wasn't an option in my model year (1975) and the various issues with the hardware and brackets and so on.

You'd need the seats, the floor panel and the seat attachment hardware, the seat belt brackets and so on underneath it all.

If you check under the floor board, you may find the fuselage was built with both front and rear seat belt brackets. In that case, it should be pretty easy to acquire the floor panel, seat clips and a set of seats. The rear seats are little bit different as well, but you can probably use them.

I know the club seats have been installed under a one-time STC in at least one PA34.

I'd think you'd be able to do the same to go all forward seats. Just don't know of anyone who's done that conversion.


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 Post subject: Re: Piper Lance/Saratoga Forward Facing Seats Dilemma
PostPosted: 06 Sep 2018, 21:59 
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Aircraft: PA34, C172, PA18
Here's my take on it:

Both seat styles are on the TC from about 79 on. So if you acquired the right parts you could convert from one to the other.

An earlier one would require an STC or well engineered 337? I'm not aware of one, but I do know someone working on it.

1) Third row seats are set back further, I can't remember if thee seats were different to the mounting different.
2) The middle row seats are considerably different, but you could find a set.
3) The floorboards are different, or more specifically the mounting 'slots' are different.
4) The seatbelt attachment points are different.

I have a wrecked Saratoga if someone needs some parts?

Don


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 Post subject: Re: Piper Lance/Saratoga Forward Facing Seats Dilemma
PostPosted: 09 Sep 2018, 12:27 
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Username Protected wrote:
Here's my take on it:

Both seat styles are on the TC from about 79 on. So if you acquired the right parts you could convert from one to the other.

An earlier one would require an STC or well engineered 337? I'm not aware of one, but I do know someone working on it.

1) Third row seats are set back further, I can't remember if thee seats were different to the mounting different.
2) The middle row seats are considerably different, but you could find a set.
3) The floorboards are different, or more specifically the mounting 'slots' are different.
4) The seatbelt attachment points are different.

I have a wrecked Saratoga if someone needs some parts?

Don


Thank you all for contributing to the question. I get that all the floor mounting widgets and seat-belt attach points are in a different location. It is not a track-like system such as on a Bonanza 36/Baron 58. Is the floor itself actually a different shape or level on the later birds after 1977, or is it just the mounting points - which could easily be moved with new floorboards? I was under the impression that the forward facing seats were NOT on the TCDS beginning in 1978 on. Thanks, Mark


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 Post subject: Re: Piper Lance/Saratoga Forward Facing Seats Dilemma
PostPosted: 11 Sep 2018, 02:20 
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I owned a PA34, which is quite similar to the PA32.

I also looked at the TCDS for the PA32 line and it appears that club seats were *optional* until sometime in the 1990's. See TCDS A3SO, and find your model and serial number range and see.

http://www.spookmate.com/N4870T/TypeCer ... _Rev32.pdf

That's the first hurdle - the paperwork.

Ok, now the parts:

1. The seats obviously.

2. The mid floor board. The board structure itself is the same, aluminum sheet and foam sandwich. The holes and the attaching hardware is different between forward and club.

3. The seat belts. And the arm rests. And carpet.

4. Under the floor board in the center section are all the attachment points and brackets for seat belts. Those are very different between club and forward. Many aircraft of this era have both seat belt attachment brackets. (This is a hard one to change if it isn't this way already because you'd probably have to do structural drilling and riveting)

5. The nut plate locations for the floorboard attachment.

6. The trim at the rear of the mid-row floor boards.


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 Post subject: Re: Piper Lance/Saratoga Forward Facing Seats Dilemma
PostPosted: 25 Jun 2020, 10:43 
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Recognizing this is an old post, the info on this thread is accurate, but I want to build on it a little more.

I am wrestling with this dilemma myself. I have a ’76 Lance with row seating. My serial number is covered in the TCDS saying it is optional to convert my plane to club seating (S/N 32R-7680001 through 32R-7880068). But when I pull the floor board, none of the brackets or hardware exist for the club seating attachments, therefore to convert so that it matches Piper’s drawings would involve some structural work and I don’t want to chase that trail.

My question: Why can’t I attached the club seating's seat belts to the front seat belt anchor points? I can’t see why it would impact airworthiness or safety. In the event of a crash, it should be a forward impact so the club seating belts would have minimal load on them.

The floorboard modification appears relatively easy, but the seat belt attach points is where I hit a snag. There are a few salvage yards that have seats/floorboard for sale, they all seem to want a premium $3,000+. I don’t want to spend the money if I can’t complete the project.

Thanks for any insight!


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 Post subject: Re: Piper Lance/Saratoga Forward Facing Seats Dilemma
PostPosted: 25 Jun 2020, 10:51 
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I too wrestled with this....I ended up living with the forward facing seating....and actually ended up liking the configuration better. When the need arose I just removed the middle seats for more room (I had an updated W&B for that configuration).

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 Post subject: Re: Piper Lance/Saratoga Forward Facing Seats Dilemma
PostPosted: 25 Jun 2020, 11:03 
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Username Protected wrote:
I too wrestled with this....I ended up living with the forward facing seating....and actually ended up liking the configuration better. When the need arose I just removed the middle seats for more room (I had an updated W&B for that configuration).



Rick, Why did you like the configuration better?

I have had mine since 2016, and so far I don't think I have found a scenario where row seating is an advantage. Maybe if I had a passenger who gets motion sick riding backwards.


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 Post subject: Re: Piper Lance/Saratoga Forward Facing Seats Dilemma
PostPosted: 25 Jun 2020, 13:22 
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Username Protected wrote:
I too wrestled with this....I ended up living with the forward facing seating....and actually ended up liking the configuration better. When the need arose I just removed the middle seats for more room (I had an updated W&B for that configuration).



Rick, Why did you like the configuration better?

I have had mine since 2016, and so far I don't think I have found a scenario where row seating is an advantage. Maybe if I had a passenger who gets motion sick riding backwards.

the leg room in the club seating is limited....and requires folks to interlock legs. Not the best for kids who don't want to touch each other. And....for most of my flying the middle seats were out. So, it wasn't as big a deal as I first made it.
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 Post subject: Re: Piper Lance/Saratoga Forward Facing Seats Dilemma
PostPosted: 25 Jun 2020, 14:49 
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[/quote]
the leg room in the club seating is limited....and requires folks to interlock legs. Not the best for kids who don't want to touch each other. And....for most of my flying the middle seats were out. So, it wasn't as big a deal as I first made it.[/quote]

I would agree with you, most of my flying I don’t need middle seats at all. It’s kind of like 4 wheel drive on my truck, I don’t need it very often, but it is handy when I need it.

Currently when I take my family, I have a two year old and three year old that ride in those middle seats. They are in carseats and actually are facing rear. In a club seating configuration this would be a dream because they could be face to face with mom the whole time. I suppose as they get older there will be times when touching each other will be a problem, but I can’t see that as a deal breaker.

I would like the club seating option, and see it as feasible, if I can attach seat belts to the front seats belt anchor points. I just wonder why I haven’t seen a retrofit where someone already did this?


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 Post subject: Re: Piper Lance/Saratoga Forward Facing Seats Dilemma
PostPosted: 25 Jun 2020, 20:48 
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The travel on the pilot and co-pilot seat is limited when club seats are installed. Tall people like me are unable to slide the pilot seat all the way back or set the seat recline to a comfortable angle with the club seating.

It was a popular selling option, but the club seats have some drawbacks. The forward facing mid-row is in many ways, more practical.


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 Post subject: Re: Piper Lance/Saratoga Forward Facing Seats Dilemma
PostPosted: 26 Jun 2020, 09:53 
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The only time I recall the "club seating" configuration being of any benefit to my passengers was when a tall, long-legged woman in a tight black dress deplaned from my Seneca on a trip to a wedding in Vegas.
It is interesting to see that the ingeniously named Club Seating was a knee-jerk response to the "Cabin Class" feature brought out by Cessna. That created an immediate void in the sales department at the Beech camp, wherein the engineering department was swiftly directed to reconfigure the seating in an otherwise very small area. It worked, as gullible buyers quickly took to the gadgetry with the predictable reaction that they could possess something better than the guy in the adjacent hangar.
Interlocked legs, children in kicking bouts, and rarely-used exotic wood card tables aside, the statistics for all-forward seating favor the occupants in sudden deceleration events. Arguably, a properly briefed passenger that braces before impact stands a better chance for minimizing injury than the aft-facing one. Not only does that individual face whiplash injury to the neck, but now the pilot and copilot, restrained by shoulder harnesses, must suffer the crushing impact of an accelerated body, most likely obese, that is flung at him or her when the aft-facing middle seat back fails.
A good number of passengers these days, uninterested in things aviation, soon become sleepy from boredom, predictably dozing off shortly after reaching cruising altitudes. A soft pillow, noise-cancelling sets, and leaning back the middle, forward-facing seats will assure a pleasant flight, where your guests will marvel at your piloting skills when they awaken after touching down at your destination. (An excellent illustration of this can be seen in Sven Larson's recent post on his trip to Friday Harbor). When the aft-facing px dozes off in an erect position, head-nodding and snoring will be sure to make the experience of flight in a small airplane less than pleasant for the other passengers.
The rare exception to the above would be when a good game of Texas Hold'em can be conjured among your club seated passengers during flights of two hours or less. Wine, cheese, and crackers assure that you will be lionized at the office next week.
Regardless of the seating configuration, we are fortunate to be able to enjoy the freedom of General Aviation, a privilege few can exercise, and others only dream of. For that, I am grateful.
Best,

TN


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 Post subject: Re: Piper Lance/Saratoga Forward Facing Seats Dilemma
PostPosted: 26 Jun 2020, 10:04 
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Username Protected wrote:
Regardless of the seating configuration, we are fortunate to be able to enjoy the freedom of General Aviation, a privilege few can exercise, and others only dream of. For that, I am grateful.
Best,

TN




....ditto, we are fortunate, lucky, blessed, whatever you want to call it. It is quite a privilege


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