When fuel goes up $2.00, I seem to notice it more at 200GPH.

You should get that 425 checked out

I try to only share experience with planes I have direct knowledge of. Trying to help a guy understand all angles.

My point is turbines burn a lot more gas than 421s and when fuel goes up, you notice. I’ve been through this when I owned a 421C and many turboprop owners were feeling it back then too. That is who was calling on my 421.

Just trying to pass along my experiences.

Just messing with you. Shoulda been green

I've purchased, operated, managed, and been very involved in the maintenance of a 414, 421C, and 441. I know some, but not details of the 425 SID program.

The SID system for the 441 is similar to operating a 414/421 on a 135 certificate. It is not difficult to comply with most the SID's, but is fairly complex from a record keeping standpoint. In fact, the 441 we have was previously maintained by WestStar, and their fancy records were all screwed up to the point that it arrived for our prebuy with approximately 15 inspections several years past due, even though their records said it was airworthy. It takes a good shop to understand and document the inspections. Many of the ~52 airframe inspections are pretty simple and only take a short period of time to comply with.

If you were consistently operating less than a couple hundred hours per year, I would definitely look into one of the low utilization programs, which would make the airplane very economical to operate...

Jason

One thing many people don’t realize is the 425/441 SID program is almost all hours/cycles based. The only calendar based inspections (besides the original Cessna phase 2,3,D) and the corrosion prevention and control program (CPCP). There are 3 of those and 2 are small, the third is about $5k to comply with every 5 years. It’s actually not a huge burden and brings the MX requirements more in line with most turboprops. The people who got screwed were the people that owned the plane in 2009 and had to comply with every single one at once.

Here's an interesting consideration if thinking about either of these birds...

The new Garmin GFC600 digital autopilot list of future supported airframes is below. Note that the C421C model is listed and does not include A nor B models. I believe one of the major drawbacks of these birds is the lousy Cessna autopilots. Having flown behind the GFC700 for a few years now has me spoiled rotten. If I were considering a C421, I would limit my search to only C models for this reason alone. I would immediately put in a GFC600 A/P to one that I bought (when the cert work is done...).

https://buy.garmin.com/en-US/US/p/604258#additional

GFC 600 Certification Programs Planned to Begin in the Next 12-months:
(Not currently under development and subject to change.)

Cessna Grand Caravan
Model: 208, 208B (With Floats)
Cessna 414
Model: 414A
Cessna 421
Model: 421C
Cessna 425
Model: 425
Cessna 441
Model: 441
Piper PA-46
Models: 310P, 350P*
Socata TBM
Models: 700, A, B, C1, C2, N (TBM 850)

Over the last 35 years I have owned and operated every aircraft mentioned in this thread. As CEO of Blackhawk Modifications I am a little biased but here are my experiences in summary:

C421C. I have owned dozens of them. I worked at RAM Aircraft 20+ years ago so I understand the GTSIO engine well and it's a very good engine. It's very rarely an engine problem - most of the time its a pilot problem. Cracked cases and cylinders are generally caused by ham fisted throttle jockeys who think it's ok to slam a throttle to full power in about 2 seconds on take off or chop the power to idle on short final. The geared engines just don't like abrupt or large power changes. I have over 3000 hours in C421C's and knock on wood, I have never cracked a case or a cylinder. Just do everything in slow motion and small incremental power changes. Also, make sure you do the starter adapter inspection regularly. Have a good shop do your prebuy - Air Impressions here in Waco or S&S in GA are ones that I would recommend. Ops cost with fuel but w/o hangar and pilot comes to around $550-600/hour depending on your fuel cost.

C425. Probably my favorite airplane on the planet. Cessna 421 maintenance with turbine engines. Quiet, fast (especially with our 135A engines - 285 knots) lots of baggage room, easy to fly, forgiving and comfortable. Downside: The SIDS. If they have not been done it could run as much as $300,000+. Make sure they have been done by a knowledgeable shop like West Star, Yingling or TechnicAir in Fresno. Also, most have either the 1000 autopilot or the SPZ-500 on the later models. Genesys has an aftermarket autopilot that I hear is very good but I have not flown it. If the plane has the 1000 AP, plan on buying a spare computer. I have had several go out on various planes that I owned so it's nice to just plug in the spare. Through the CAA program you can get jet A very cheap - under $4 a gallon in many areas so the fuel cost isn't a lot more than the 421C. Probably looking at around $800-$850 an hour ops cost same exclusions as above.


90 series King Air. Lots to choose from - C90 A/B, E90, F90. Lots of pilots checked out in them, lots of shops work on them unlike the Conquest I/II or Turbo Commanders. Not as quiet as the C425 and unless you have Raisbeck baggage lockers, not nearly as much baggage room. Lots of avionics upgrade choices and on the later models, the APS 65 or SPZ-200 autopilots are really good autopilots. If your budget allows, look for a C90A or B with Blackhawk upgraded engines. They cost more but 265-270 knots is a heck of a lot better than 235-245 and they are generally first run new engines so your engine maintenance is much lower than the 21s that have been overhauled several times. Ops cost is a little more than the Conquest I because after all - it's a King Air with BEECH parts! Probably $850 an hour.



C441. I have owned and operated 3 Conquest II's. My experience was that its just about the same as Citation II maintenance and ops cost. Sure the Garretts burn less fuel and have a longer TBO than the Pratt but you have an MPI at 2500 hours that can run nearly as much as an overhaul on a Pratt. Every phase 2,3 & D inspection I had ran at least $60,000 and many were upwards of $90,000. Many pilots love them, I just didn't have a fat enough checkbook to maintain it. No idea on ops cost since its been so long since I owned one.


Turbo Commander. I flew one for a living back in the 80's. LOVED this plane. Easy to fly, LOTS of baggage room, fast, great single engine performance, rugged, a little on the noisy side in the cabin because the props are very close to the fuselage. Not a lot of shops work on them and few pilots fly them anymore. Unless you are in the upper mid-west close to Eagle Creek or in FL, it's hard to find shops and pilots. Still, I have many great memories in the 690B that I flew. Again, not sure on the ops cost but they can be bought cheap so it's not a bad option.


There you have it. The above and $7.00 bucks won't buy you a cup of coffee at Starbucks but it should help in your decision making process.

I owned a 58 Baron for nine years then a Cessna 414A for three years and now a 425 Conquest for three years and counting.

The Conquest is much more reliable than the 414, and due to the difference in price between Jet A and 100LL, the fuel cost on a given trip is very close if not the same. I wouldn’t say the Conquest is cheaper to own than the 414 but it’s within spitting distance.

The nice thing about the Conquest is the maintenance events are not nearly as often. The troublesome engines of the 414A kept it going back to the shop.

My two cents: if you can afford to operate a 421 you can afford to operate a 425.

Probably true but one that that is super important when buying any turbine is to make sure that you have some cash in reserve for addressing issues in the first year or two of ownership. I've heard that you should always reserve 20% of the purchase price of any airplane for post close issues. But with a turbine, its especially important not to blow your whole wad on the purchase.

What a great synopsis - THANKS!

Don,
Don’t count out the 421B’s! Mine came with a KFC 300( incredible autopilot)and Genesis (S-Tec) are STCing the 3100 for the 421B. A lot of these have S-Tec already so the upgrade to the 3100 will be easy!

Tony

An editorial on stabilizing budget below.....

THE TWIN CESSNA FLYER • AUGUST 2018

POWER-BY-THE-HOUR
FOR TWIN CESSNAS

Turbine operators have long benefited from engine and even airframe maintenance programs. They pay an hourly fee to the program management company and then most, if not all, maintenance expenses are paid by that company.

There are many benefits to programs like this, including: 1) Your maintenance costs become predictable because unexpected events are covered by the program and your hourly fees. 2) the program protects you, the operator, 100% against these unexpected events. (In our case, this might be a cracked crankcase or an engine tear down due to
metal in the oil.) 3) according to VREF and Blue Book, an aircraft enrolled on a PistonPower Program increases the residual value of your aircraft because all maintenance is covered going forward, the engines are treated as new and transfers with the aircraft upon sale. The flip side is that if you have a good maintenance experience with your airplane and no unexpected events, a program like this might cost you more than simply paying maintenance expenses out-of-pocket.

A relatively new company, PistonPower, is offering several maintenance programs like this to piston aircraft, including certain Twin Cessnas. Right now, they have programs for the 414 and 421 that are equipped with RAM engines, but they can customize programs for other aircraft. Our recent member survey showed that 30% of our membership
would be interested in such a program. I know if I still owned my 421, I would definitely
be interested. Unpredictable maintenance costs are the biggest challenge in using the
airplane in a business.

The number one risk of a program like this is the company behind it. After all, you are paying them an hourly fee. Will they come through when you have a maintenance
event? PistonPower was founded by Ron Zilberbrand, who founded Jet Support Services,
Inc. — the world’s largest independent provider of hourly cost maintenance programs for
turbine aircraft. Plus, the company states on its website, “The client money is placed in a Putnam Fund and is not an asset of the company...if the company were to dissolve then the management team would simply return the unused monies to each contract holder.”
I don’t have space to outline all the maintenance plans and fees here, but I’ve looked them over and I believe they are worth checking out for any 414 or 421 owner who values predictable maintenance costs. My bottom line, preliminary analysis is you may
pay more for the program in good maintenance years and much less in bad ones, but either way your maintenance costs will finally be predictable. For more information, visit the PistonPower website at http://www.pistonpower.com.

What is the cost?

What is "unscheduled"... does that mean any part that doesn't have a life/hours limit, or recommendation?

Doug

PistonPower™ Unscheduled is a 3-year program, for a maximum of 600 hours of service. Costs are between $ 5500- $9500 depending on the engine.

Engine Protection – 100% parts and labor for all unscheduled maintenance of covered engine components
Enrollment Flexibility – You can purchase PistonPower™ anytime during the engine’s life
Renewability – Your program can be renewed regardless of service history
Transferability – Should you sell your aircraft, the PistonPower™ program transfers to your buyer
Expert Assistance – Help desk technicians are available from 7am to 10pm EST to troubleshoot problems and handle maintenance issues
Loaner Components – If repairs require extended time, we can arrange to loan you what you need
Ground Shipping – You never have to pay for domestic freight with PistonPower™
Bonus Coverage – PistonPower™ programs include available reimbursement for loss of use and trip interruption

PistonPower™ Unscheduled Plus is a 3-year program, for a maximum of 600 hours of service. Costs are between $ 6500 - $19,000 depending on the engine and accessories.

For a small additional cost, add accessory coverage with PistonPower™ Unscheduled Plus and you can get all the benefits above plus:
Accessory Protection – 100% parts and labor for all unscheduled maintenance of covered aircraft accessories, including the starter, magnetos, alternators, fuel pump, gear, turbo and more