17 Apr 2024, 20:44 [ UTC - 5; DST ]
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Post subject: Re: Pilatus PC-24 on dirt  Posted: 25 Jun 2018, 17:48 |
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Joined: 07/16/17
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Location: KYIP Willow Run (Detroit MI)
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Username Protected wrote: First jet you can load mining equipment into with a forklift though Not even the first bizjet for that. I’ve got an hour or two in these.
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Post subject: Re: Pilatus PC-24 on dirt Posted: 25 Jun 2018, 20:50 |
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Joined: 11/08/12
Posts: 12799
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Location: Jackson, MS (KHKS)
Aircraft: 1961 Cessna 172
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Username Protected wrote: First jet you can load mining equipment into with a forklift though Only readily available single pilot jet practical for moving heavy cargo routinely off dirt/grass/gravel
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Post subject: Re: Pilatus PC-24 on dirt Posted: 25 Jun 2018, 21:20 |
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Joined: 12/03/14
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Company: Ciholas, Inc
Location: KEHR
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Username Protected wrote: Only readily available single pilot jet practical for moving heavy cargo routinely off dirt/grass/gravel "Readily available"? Can I get one tomorrow? No. Only a handful made, years to get one, and not even yet approved for non paved runways. Turboprops are far better suited to unimproved strips hauling out cargo. A $9M jet isn't. Only a handful of operators will ever use it, and likely not that often. Will come with significant runway length adders further eroding the utility. Makes for a nice sales gimmick. Mike C.
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Post subject: Re: Pilatus PC-24 on dirt Posted: 25 Jun 2018, 22:56 |
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Joined: 03/28/17
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Location: N. California
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Username Protected wrote: First jet you can load mining equipment into with a forklift though Not even the first bizjet for that. I’ve got an hour or two in these.
The Falcon 20 is the jet that launched FedEx. If the PC 24 with a wide cargo door can get into and out of significantly shorter fields than the competition, it will become a good fast feeder for package carriers; even without dirt strip capability.
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Post subject: Re: Pilatus PC-24 on dirt Posted: 25 Jun 2018, 23:23 |
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Joined: 07/23/09
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Location: KSJT
Aircraft: PC-24 Citabria 7GCBC
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Username Protected wrote:
Turboprops are far better suited to unimproved strips hauling out cargo.
A $9M jet isn't. Only a handful of operators will ever use it, and likely not that often. Will come with significant runway length adders further eroding the utility. Makes for a nice sales gimmick.
Mike C.
Several of Pilatus’s customers were asking for a faster PC12 that could operate off unimproved and short runways. Turbroprops are limited in speed and still maintain the short and unimproved airport utility so Pilatus couldn’t meet customer requirements with a turboprop. The RFDS in Australia has already received 2 of their pc24s and will use the off airport utility. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_F ... _AustraliaWe operate in the world’s best airport infrastructure so it’s hard for us to see the utility of unimproved airport ops. Pilatus is anything but a company that creates sales gimmicks.
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Post subject: Re: Pilatus PC-24 on dirt Posted: 25 Jun 2018, 23:25 |
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Joined: 12/03/14
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Username Protected wrote: If the PC 24 with a wide cargo door can get into and out of significantly shorter fields than the competition, it will become a good fast feeder for package carriers; even without dirt strip capability. Can you give me some examples of airports where a PC-24 short runway capability is compelling? It is hard to find them in the US. There is either an airport with a good runway, or the airport is easily reached by a 208 in only a few minutes more than a PC-24. The place it would help is a really remote destination, with a short runway, that you have to fly at least 400 nm to get to from a bigger hub. Not too many places fit that description. Note that FedEx flies ATR 42/72 turboprops that are both fast and relatively short runway usage, a PC-24 will never pencil out more economical than those. I don't see the PC-24 being a freight dog airplane. Mike C.
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Post subject: Re: Pilatus PC-24 on dirt Posted: 26 Jun 2018, 01:24 |
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Location: San Carlos, CA - KHWD
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Username Protected wrote: Can you give me some examples of airports where a PC-24 short runway capability is compelling? Well, how about KSQL...  Perhaps in a few years when there is a used market for them. Admittedly I don’t want to fly packages.... Quote: I don't see the PC-24 being a freight dog airplane.
Agree. Too expensive if nothing else.
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-Jon C.
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Post subject: Re: Pilatus PC-24 on dirt Posted: 26 Jun 2018, 01:47 |
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Username Protected wrote: Well, how about KSQL... :) Cessna 208 to KOAK where FedEx has a hub. Or, just take a truck. Mike C.
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Post subject: Re: Pilatus PC-24 on dirt Posted: 26 Jun 2018, 08:45 |
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Joined: 04/06/11
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Maybe this runway still exists ar Pax River for the testing ?  [youtube]https://youtu.be/HnTp0yKGcxU[/youtube]
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Post subject: Re: Pilatus PC-24 on dirt Posted: 26 Jun 2018, 09:11 |
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Joined: 04/29/13
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Username Protected wrote: Well, how about KSQL... Cessna 208 to KOAK where FedEx has a hub. Or, just take a truck. Mike C.
I think Jon's comment was tongue in cheek, but he does make a good point. Often things are not as they first appear. In the bay area there is a plethora of millionaires and billionaires. The traffic here is so bad it could take a couple of hours to drive from KSQL to KOAK. A lot of them keep their jets at KSJC, but that can be an hours drive during commute time. Being able to use a jet out of KSQL or KPAO would be a big deal. There is a charter company flying PC-12s around the bay area just because the traffic is bad. Kind of like Cape Air. Some trucking companies are paying people to just sit in the right seat so they can use the commute lanes. Several companies run their own airlines out of KSJC, I would not be surprised if they would want to make pickups at KSQL and KPAO (Google got a sweetheart deal to use KNUQ).
So, using a truck from KSQL to KOAK is out of the questions if time is important, and loading and unloading an extra plane (208) can also eat up precious time. Often time is more important. I was doing an emergency repair at Google. We had some equipment shipped from North Carolina on a direct truck. Two days later a 40' big rig truck showed up with 3 drivers in the cab and 1 pallet in the back. Time is money.
Vince
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Post subject: Re: Pilatus PC-24 on dirt Posted: 26 Jun 2018, 09:34 |
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Username Protected wrote: Being able to use a jet out of KSQL or KPAO would be a big deal. You certainly hope you aren't using the "dirt" capability of the PC-24 at those airports. The published takeoff distance is 2810 ft which exceeds both PAO and SQL. Both are almost always above ISA, too, so that number is longer with actual temperatures. So you will be quite weight limited if basing a PC-24 at those airports. There will be no margin for error. If it rains, even the slightest amount, you aren't using either airport. Mike C.
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Post subject: Re: Pilatus PC-24 on dirt Posted: 26 Jun 2018, 10:33 |
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Joined: 03/28/17
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Location: N. California
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Username Protected wrote: If the PC 24 with a wide cargo door can get into and out of significantly shorter fields than the competition, it will become a good fast feeder for package carriers; even without dirt strip capability. Can you give me some examples of airports where a PC-24 short runway capability is compelling? It is hard to find them in the US. There is either an airport with a good runway, or the airport is easily reached by a 208 in only a few minutes more than a PC-24. The place it would help is a really remote destination, with a short runway, that you have to fly at least 400 nm to get to from a bigger hub. Not too many places fit that description. Note that FedEx flies ATR 42/72 turboprops that are both fast and relatively short runway usage, a PC-24 will never pencil out more economical than those. I don't see the PC-24 being a freight dog airplane. Mike C.
Fred Smith found locations that were a good fit for a whole fleet of Falcon 20's.
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Post subject: Re: Pilatus PC-24 on dirt Posted: 26 Jun 2018, 13:42 |
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Joined: 11/08/12
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Location: San Carlos, CA - KHWD
Aircraft: Piaggio Avanti
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Username Protected wrote: Being able to use a jet out of KSQL or KPAO would be a big deal. You certainly hope you aren't using the "dirt" capability of the PC-24 at those airports. The published takeoff distance is 2810 ft which exceeds both PAO and SQL. Both are almost always above ISA, too, so that number is longer with actual temperatures. So you will be quite weight limited if basing a PC-24 at those airports.
Vince basically got what I meant. I didn’t mean that a PC24 makes any kind of sense for packages. But there are other reasons to want to use short fields.
And sure, you’d be somewhat weight limited going in/out. But you could still go an awful lot of places on 2/3 fuel or whatever.
I already think carefully if I need to go out full fuel in the Mits. But it rarely comes up. Two weeks ago I went back east. Couldn’t make it the whole way without a stop even if I took full fuel. But I made it to KLBF even a couple hundred pounds shy of full. Cheap fuel, more than halfway there. Worked fine.
As an aside, Larry Ellison keeps a CJ4 based here. I’ve heard it does shorter trips (SoCal) and sometimes just ferries him to the big plane in KSCK...
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Post subject: Re: Pilatus PC-24 on dirt Posted: 26 Jun 2018, 14:11 |
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Joined: 03/09/11
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Username Protected wrote: FOD aka full employment for insurance adjusters. [Link][/Link] I would be interested to know how much FOD those old Mark Air 737-100/200's used to see operating into gravel strips (even with the gravel kit installed) in AK back in the 80's and early 90's and before they were acquired by Southwest.
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E-mail: thauge@wingsinsurance.com
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