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29 Mar 2024, 11:41 [ UTC - 5; DST ]


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 Post subject: Re: Being on the Williams engine program paid off!
PostPosted: 17 Jun 2018, 12:19 
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Company: Ciholas, Inc
Location: KEHR
Aircraft: C560V
Username Protected wrote:
Seems like engine programs (at least on Williams engines) are normal in the jet world, but virtually non existent in the turbo prop world.

Depends.

On older jets, rare to see engine programs. The JT15D Citations, for example.

On the newer jets, much more common. On Williams, they basically force it by monopolistic pricing of off program maintenance. Yet you can find FJ44s off program, but they get punished in the resale market by the cost of putting them back on program.

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I've seen a couple of King Air listings that talk about JSSI, but it seems to be very rare (at least from pursuing Controller).

I agree.

Quote:
Why aren't engine programs more common in the PT-6 / Garrett worlds?

Several factors. It is really more of a new versus old than jet versus turboprop.

When the older airplanes were introduced, engine programs were not available, not a common thing. So the planes all started out without them. Once you don't have one, you face a lump sum to get on one, so that's a barrier to acceptance. The newer airplanes got marketed with engine programs from day one, often with discounts on early hours, so far more owners opted in and once in, you tend to stay in since your paid in equity gets lost otherwise.

Further, the older airplanes are older and less costly, so the owners are typically being more economical. Engine programs are more expensive in the long run. In some cases, these owners don't fly enough to meet the program minimum hours (Williams is 150 hours/year, that's a lot of miles on a CJ), so the programs are not a fit.

Lastly, the supply of used engines for older airplanes is much higher. You can find JT15D and TPE331 engines out there every day of the week. This comes from some airframes being retired from wear and tear or other events (like accident or loss). The supply of used engines mean you have an escape plan if you have to replace a totally trashed engine.

As an owner of two TPE331 engines, I am not going to be on a program. I am comfortable with what unscheduled engine work may cost, I am comfortable that I am quite far from a scheduled event, I am comfortable with the market deciding what my engines are worth when I sell. If I have a FOD event, my insurance covers that ($0 deductible no less), and at worst, I have to find a used engine and I can do that.

If I buy a legacy Citation with a JT15D, I won't be on program. If I buy a plane with an FJ44, I will be on the program. That just the way it is.

I would expect turboprops sold in the last 15 years to have a much higher rate of engine programs.

Mike C.

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Email mikec (at) ciholas.com


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 Post subject: Re: Being on the Williams engine program paid off!
PostPosted: 17 Jun 2018, 13:11 
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Joined: 01/30/09
Posts: 3343
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Location: $ilicon Vall€y
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It's all a matter of probability vs. consequences. A significant unscheduled maintenance event on a turbine engine has low probability of occurrence, but a very high consequence if it does.

That's what keeps me out of turbines. I can't pencil the numbers in a way that makes sense, and my business needs at this point in time, do not require that kind of travel capability.

So I'm good in my low-utilization piston airplane.


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 Post subject: Re: Being on the Williams engine program paid off!
PostPosted: 20 Jun 2018, 23:11 
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Joined: 07/15/12
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Location: Texas
Aircraft: G1000 182
Username Protected wrote:
Have you seen or heard of PistonPower?

Just started.

Another company tried this about 10-15 years ago, though mostly focused on overall maintenance, not just the engine. They lasted less than 18 months.

I predict the service with either charge too much and get few sales, or charge too little and lose money, and will not last more than 3 years in either case. If they go bye bye, then your paid in program equity goes bye bye, too.

There is always something "wrong" with a piston engine. One cylinder a bit low, a small case crack, little oil leak past nose seal, spark plug lead chaffing, and so on. When the owner is paying, those items are fine to leave alone. When someone else is paying, then they all got to be fixed right now. So the economic dynamic changes in these programs. I would expect significant tension between owner and PistonPower over what needs to be done or not.

Those sorts of arguments are far less in the turbine world.

I am expecting they will be evasive about pricing so the only way to find out is to present an exemplar case, someone needs to go through the process to tell us the price. It wouldn't surprise me if they have you sign something to not disclose the price in order to get a quote.

When/if we do get a pricing, it will expose just how much piston engines cost per hour, something that is relatively vague to most owners.

I predict for their highest level of coverage, scheduled and unscheduled, for a GTSIO-520 on a 421C will be about $75/hour. That's $120,000 over a 1600 hour overhaul period.

Mike C.


Har...$75 per hour won’t get you full coverage on a naturally aspirated Cirrus. Their full coverage is tip to tail however.

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