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 Post subject: Re: Cessna Citation 500 Series vs Citation Jet 525 Series
PostPosted: 11 Jul 2018, 11:01 
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One thing that hasn't been mentioned is the availability of used parts on the 500s. Parts are extremely cheap on them. For example, we are replacing a cockpit side window with a used one for about $2K including labor. It sounds like a a 525 part is 22K installed.

How is this possible? Even if the part is free, why would it be less labor (previous post said 60 hours) to install?


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 Post subject: Re: Cessna Citation 500 Series vs Citation Jet 525 Series
PostPosted: 11 Jul 2018, 12:46 
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Username Protected wrote:
One thing that hasn't been mentioned is the availability of used parts on the 500s. Parts are extremely cheap on them. For example, we are replacing a cockpit side window with a used one for about $2K including labor. It sounds like a a 525 part is 22K installed.

How is this possible? Even if the part is free, why would it be less labor (previous post said 60 hours) to install?
Side vs front window, I assume.

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 Post subject: Re: Cessna Citation 500 Series vs Citation Jet 525 Series
PostPosted: 11 Jul 2018, 15:30 
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I have attached my original quote for our work. The quote shows maintenance manual hours of 97 but it only took 60 hrs as I recall and we did end up replacing both panels as the inner window often breaks when removed. The parts prices are directly from Cessna.

Once you see the labor involved in removing and replacing both panes of glass, 50+ bolts, 20 lbs of PRC and the interior then you see why it costs that much.

Did someone do a prism check in order for it to need replacement? 2k dang that's some cheap labor there :D

Gary


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 Post subject: Re: Cessna Citation 500 Series vs Citation Jet 525 Series
PostPosted: 12 Jul 2018, 12:53 
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Username Protected wrote:
Did someone do a prism check in order for it to need replacement? 2k dang that's some cheap labor there :D

Gary


buy your jet parts on eBay, do your own maintenance, and pay for a logbook signoff

problem solved


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 Post subject: Re: Cessna Citation 500 Series vs Citation Jet 525 Series
PostPosted: 12 Jul 2018, 13:50 
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MT's approach to owning a jet is pretty cool - "jet as a hobby" rather than "jet as a business tool". The former takes more time and less money the latter is the opposite.

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 Post subject: Re: Cessna Citation 500 Series vs Citation Jet 525 Series
PostPosted: 12 Jul 2018, 15:15 
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Username Protected wrote:
Did someone do a prism check in order for it to need replacement? 2k dang that's some cheap labor there :D

Gary


buy your jet parts on eBay, do your own maintenance, and pay for a logbook signoff

problem solved

Wow - This reads like the intro of a NTSB report...

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 Post subject: Re: Cessna Citation 500 Series vs Citation Jet 525 Series
PostPosted: 12 Jul 2018, 16:46 
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Username Protected wrote:
Wow - This reads like the intro of a NTSB report...

Find me some NTSB reports like that.

Seriously.

I'm trying to locate accidents that have been caused by bad parts.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: Cessna Citation 500 Series vs Citation Jet 525 Series
PostPosted: 12 Jul 2018, 17:05 
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Username Protected wrote:
Wow - This reads like the intro of a NTSB report...

Find me some NTSB reports like that.

Seriously.

I'm trying to locate accidents that have been caused by bad parts.

Mike C.


It looks like you missed this Mike.

https://flightsafety.org/fsd/fsd_jan-feb94.pdf

"The NTSB's data base lists 14 incidents/accidents linked to bogus parts between 1984 and 1992."

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 Post subject: Re: Cessna Citation 500 Series vs Citation Jet 525 Series
PostPosted: 12 Jul 2018, 18:33 
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Seriously, how did anyone make the leap to this? For your information, the airplane in question is at a legitimate Citation shop getting a Phase 1-5 done along with replacing a windshield and cockpit side window. We have a plethora of used parts available off high quality ex-government owned Citations. It would be foolish to intentionally purchase new parts on a plane of this vintage. Does anyone really think you need a new windshield to be safe?

Chris, having owned a blank checkbook maintained P Baron; a Citation (even one that got zero maintenance) is an order of magnitude safer than a flawlessly maintained P Baron. This hypothetical unloved Citation would also be more reliable despite having zero maintenance done to it. There are so many redundancies built into the Citation and coupling that with the inherent reliability of jet engines, even a perfectly maintained P Baron could never match the safety of a Citation. If you think a P Baron is well made, you will be blown away at how well constructed and robust a Citation is.

I don't particularly like NTSB jokes as you made but a P Baron is far more likely to end up in an NTSB report than any Citation; even one that I choose to maintain wisely and economically. That plane scared the crap out of me when hot and heavy. If you lose an engine on takeoff and aren't Chuck Yeager that particular day, it's not going to end well. And to be perfectly honest, I feel my hands on approach to owning my Citation has resulted in vastly superior maintenance than I had when dropping the P off for its usual $10K annual inspection.

With regards to dispatch reliability, I flew my Citation 28 hours in the last 6 weeks and over 100 hours since buying it and the only thing that has failed since fixing a few things initially was the magnetic flux gate on the pilot's side along with the Hobbs meter. Both items were fixed for about $200 total.

My particular approach to owning my airplane works for me and has resulted in excellent safety and reliability. However, I can't say it would work for everyone. This has far an away been the best, most reliable airplane I have owned. It is also far and away the easiest to fly, most comfortable and safest airplane I have flown.


Last edited on 12 Jul 2018, 19:43, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Cessna Citation 500 Series vs Citation Jet 525 Series
PostPosted: 12 Jul 2018, 18:47 
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Username Protected wrote:
One thing that hasn't been mentioned is the availability of used parts on the 500s. Parts are extremely cheap on them. For example, we are replacing a cockpit side window with a used one for about $2K including labor. It sounds like a a 525 part is 22K installed.

How is this possible? Even if the part is free, why would it be less labor (previous post said 60 hours) to install?


The interior is removed from the plane as its getting a 1-5; The actual labor is much less than 60 hours. I will report back on the final bill but they have replaced lots of windows and know what they are doing.

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 Post subject: Re: Cessna Citation 500 Series vs Citation Jet 525 Series
PostPosted: 12 Jul 2018, 21:41 
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MT I apologize but you didn’t state that the airplane was already undergoing a Phase 1-5 with the interior out - Yes obviously this will be less expensive.

As John L stated, I applaud your effort towards proving that CJ ownership can be affordable for the common man. Hopefully it proves beneficial and safe for you and will come in handy for a lot of us down the road.


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 Post subject: Re: Cessna Citation 500 Series vs Citation Jet 525 Series
PostPosted: 12 Jul 2018, 22:07 
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Username Protected wrote:
MT I apologize but you didn’t state that the airplane was already undergoing a Phase 1-5 with the interior out - Yes obviously this will be less expensive.

As John L stated, I applaud your effort towards proving that CJ ownership can be affordable for the common man. Hopefully it proves beneficial and safe for you and will come in handy for a lot of us down the road.


I strongly believe anyone owning a P Baron, 421, Duke etc. can own and operate a Citation 501 for about the same cost. Yes, these vintage planes burn lots of gas but they really don't break or require much else other than fuel and inspections. Standing offer. I will help anyone to the best of my ability to move into one of these amazing machines. I'll help you pick the right plane and bring it home. I also can train you in it. I am very comfortable instructing in the 501. We have a vast resource of parted out planes and my friend just bought 2 more IIs to chop up. I imagine a few people are probably on the ledge reading this thread but I encourage you to explore these great airplanes.


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 Post subject: Re: Cessna Citation 500 Series vs Citation Jet 525 Series
PostPosted: 12 Jul 2018, 22:48 
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Username Protected wrote:
"The NTSB's data base lists 14 incidents/accidents linked to bogus parts between 1984 and 1992."

Just what I thought, so rare it only occurs about 2 times per year.

In that time span, there were about 5000 accidents, to put the 14 in perspective.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: Cessna Citation 500 Series vs Citation Jet 525 Series
PostPosted: 12 Jul 2018, 23:27 
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Username Protected wrote:
"The NTSB's data base lists 14 incidents/accidents linked to bogus parts between 1984 and 1992."

Just what I thought, so rare it only occurs about 2 times per year.

In that time span, there were about 5000 accidents, to put the 14 in perspective.

Mike C.


It might be a stretch to assume that all incidents or accidents caused by bogus parts have been discovered. I just can't believe that 100% of them were discovered, after all sometimes accident planes are never found, let alone the cause, but still a small number. But if you are one of those numbers, it doesn't matter how small the total is.

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 Post subject: Re: Cessna Citation 500 Series vs Citation Jet 525 Series
PostPosted: 13 Jul 2018, 21:23 
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The 500 is awesome short field airplane. 2900ft strip at 4400ft elevation at 73 degrees, 1700lbs two people.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzBInHDx6RA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uBSaQaSg9jo


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