24 Apr 2024, 17:25 [ UTC - 5; DST ]
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Post subject: Re: Cessna Citation 500 Series vs Citation Jet 525 Series Posted: 20 Jun 2018, 23:21 |
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Joined: 02/22/11 Posts: 1243 Post Likes: +707 Company: LOCO Aviation, LLC Location: KMRH Beaufort, NC
Aircraft: BE20, BE58, C310R
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Thanks Allen
_________________ “Jet Elite” Thanks MH!
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Post subject: Re: Cessna Citation 500 Series vs Citation Jet 525 Series Posted: 20 Jun 2018, 23:46 |
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Joined: 12/17/13 Posts: 6359 Post Likes: +5543 Location: Hollywood, Los Angeles, CA
Aircraft: Turbo Commander 680V
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Username Protected wrote: I gotta hand it to you Mike; you do get into the details on things that educate the group.
Nice way of saying he's a lost cause nerd!
_________________ Problem is the intelligent people are full of doubt, while the stupid ones are full of confidence.
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Post subject: Re: Cessna Citation 500 Series vs Citation Jet 525 Series Posted: 21 Jun 2018, 04:44 |
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Joined: 12/24/07 Posts: 1242 Post Likes: +152 Location: Akron, Ohio
Aircraft: C550 - C560
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Username Protected wrote: This picture is from today's flight. I had just leveled at 450 and was burning 98GPH and doing 370Kts. As I burned off fuel, we accelerated to 398Kts.
What would the Ultra burn up at 450? What speed? It’s been awhile since I flew with a Williams powered plane and forgot what the parameters on the motors were, dang they sure crank those things up, 107 N1 and 825 ITT. I know 4 guys with Williams powered planes, and saw an additional two here on BT with significant engine events. Good thing your all on TAP. John what was your block fuel burn and weight on that flight. Gary
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Post subject: Re: Cessna Citation 500 Series vs Citation Jet 525 Series Posted: 21 Jun 2018, 05:48 |
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Joined: 03/09/13 Posts: 911 Post Likes: +449 Location: Byron Bay,NSW Australia
Aircraft: CE525,PA31
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Username Protected wrote: It’s been awhile since I flew with a Williams powered plane and forgot what the parameters on the motors were, dang they sure crank those things up, 107 N1 and 825 ITT. I know 4 guys with Williams powered planes, and saw an additional two here on BT with significant engine events. Good thing your all on TAP. Running at 107 I bet they have problems. Andrew
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Post subject: Re: Cessna Citation 500 Series vs Citation Jet 525 Series Posted: 21 Jun 2018, 05:51 |
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Joined: 03/09/13 Posts: 911 Post Likes: +449 Location: Byron Bay,NSW Australia
Aircraft: CE525,PA31
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Username Protected wrote: This picture is from today's flight Do you find cockpit dist max a good setting to keep things warm up front, does it effect the back? I sometimes click it one notch to help. Andrew
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Post subject: Re: Cessna Citation 500 Series vs Citation Jet 525 Series Posted: 21 Jun 2018, 06:45 |
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Joined: 01/31/09 Posts: 5233 Post Likes: +3026 Location: Northern NJ
Aircraft: SR22;CJ2+;C510
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Username Protected wrote: It’s been awhile since I flew with a Williams powered plane and forgot what the parameters on the motors were, dang they sure crank those things up, 107 N1 and 825 ITT. I know 4 guys with Williams powered planes, and saw an additional two here on BT with significant engine events. Good thing your all on TAP. Running at 107 I bet they have problems. Andrew
Max normal operating N1 on the CJ2 is 102.4%. Anything over that for significant time is an overspeed event and requires a maintenance check.
The number is just an arbritrary calibration of actual N1 speed so i dont know how you can infer anything is being cranked up.
_________________ Allen
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Post subject: Re: Cessna Citation 500 Series vs Citation Jet 525 Series Posted: 21 Jun 2018, 08:57 |
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Joined: 12/03/14 Posts: 19252 Post Likes: +23622 Company: Ciholas, Inc Location: KEHR
Aircraft: C560V
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Username Protected wrote: Metal is metal and the Williams seem to run and start significantly hotter than their Pratt powered brothers. You can't compare temps from one engine to the next since where and how temps are measured vary considerably even when the actual peak temperatures in the engine are similar. That being said, the Williams engines do operate at higher compression ratio, so they will be hotter, but they are built from newer materials designed to handle that, too, so metal is not always the same metal. The higher compression ratio is why they are more efficient. Quote: The little Eclipse Pratts run similarly hot and have had some issues that the JT-15s don't seem to have. Give the PW600 series 50 years of service history and they won't be having issues either. I'm sure the JT15 had its share of teething problems, they just happened so long ago that there are few remember them. Mike C.
_________________ Email mikec (at) ciholas.com
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Post subject: Re: Cessna Citation 500 Series vs Citation Jet 525 Series Posted: 21 Jun 2018, 10:47 |
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Joined: 09/04/10 Posts: 3539 Post Likes: +3198
Aircraft: C55, PC-12
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Username Protected wrote: This picture is from today's flight. I had just leveled at 450 and was burning 98GPH and doing 370Kts. As I burned off fuel, we accelerated to 398Kts.
What would the Ultra burn up at 450? What speed? It’s been awhile since I flew with a Williams powered plane and forgot what the parameters on the motors were, dang they sure crank those things up, 107 N1 and 825 ITT. I know 4 guys with Williams powered planes, and saw an additional two here on BT with significant engine events. Good thing your all on TAP. John what was your block fuel burn and weight on that flight. Gary
ARR-SDL 1250NM (deviated a little for WX - storms topped FL430!) - 3 people & full tanks (4000#) 12,050 (max is 12,500) - 3:55 flight into 40-60Kts (so about 1441 through-the-air miles). Landed with 890#. 814#/Hour or 121GPH Block to block.
800 is my minimum going into my home drone VFR. CJ2 is a 1400NM airplane. I eek'd it up to FL450 and gave up 30KTS to make this non-stop.
_________________ John Lockhart Phoenix, AZ Ridgway, CO
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Post subject: Re: Cessna Citation 500 Series vs Citation Jet 525 Series Posted: 21 Jun 2018, 10:51 |
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Joined: 09/04/10 Posts: 3539 Post Likes: +3198
Aircraft: C55, PC-12
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Username Protected wrote: This picture is from today's flight Do you find cockpit dist max a good setting to keep things warm up front, does it effect the back? I sometimes click it one notch to help. Andrew
I always keep it on max. In this case, we were into the sun the whole time and it was hot up there so the back was cold. I've got a couple of fruit-rollups I put on the windows to create some shade.
_________________ John Lockhart Phoenix, AZ Ridgway, CO
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Post subject: Re: Cessna Citation 500 Series vs Citation Jet 525 Series Posted: 21 Jun 2018, 12:00 |
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Joined: 01/31/09 Posts: 5233 Post Likes: +3026 Location: Northern NJ
Aircraft: SR22;CJ2+;C510
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Username Protected wrote: As I said its been awhile since I flew a Williams plane. Interesting that the red line is at 107% and 825c. Since as you said the max operating is 102.4% unlike the JT15D that the red lines ARE the max operating parameters. Any thoughts on why that is?
You set power on the CJ2 with this chart or using the N1 calculator in the panel. MCT is 102.4 Attachment: 2018-06-21_1204.png Williams leaves some headroom between MCT and the N1 that begins to cause damage. Attachment: 2018-06-21_1159.png Here are the ITT Temp limits. Attachment: 2018-06-21_1211.png
Please login or Register for a free account via the link in the red bar above to download files.
_________________ Allen
Last edited on 21 Jun 2018, 12:13, edited 2 times in total.
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Post subject: Re: Cessna Citation 500 Series vs Citation Jet 525 Series Posted: 21 Jun 2018, 13:03 |
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Joined: 09/04/10 Posts: 3539 Post Likes: +3198
Aircraft: C55, PC-12
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Username Protected wrote: If I missed it in this thread, I apologize, but has anyone calculated the ALL IN cost of flying a 500 vs 525 vs a V for a set number of miles per year? Ignore cost to acquire, as that is unique to each buyer and their capital situation.
I think the initial perspectives on differences between the planes are interesting, but it is probably splitting hairs in the end. I think you fly any of these planes with frequency, they are easy to fly. You drop down to 100 hours per year or less and it is tricky to stay 'truly' current and sharp. I am also on the younger end of the people who end up flying these things, and I am sure my perspective would be different in 20 years. Its a harder comparison than it seems. On one side you have service center pricing and new parts and on the other you've got guys fabricating parts in their garage.
_________________ John Lockhart Phoenix, AZ Ridgway, CO
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