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Post subject: Cessna Citation 500 Series vs Citation Jet 525 Series Posted: 01 Jun 2018, 12:29 |
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Joined: 05/29/13 Posts: 13587 Post Likes: +10972 Company: Easy Ice, LLC Location: Marquette, Michigan; Scottsdale, AZ, Telluride
Aircraft: C510,C185,C310,R66
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Having just completed my CJ type rating (525S) a lot of differences between the 500 series and the 525 series are apparent. Figured I would take a moment and review what I have learned.
At the end of the day both the 525 (CJ, CJ1, CJ1+, CJ2,CJ2+,CJ3,CJ3+,CJ4) and the 500 series (500,501, 550, 551, 560, Bravo, Ultra and Encore) are capable jet families that will take you and your pax many miles at reasonably high speeds (335-420). The CJ’s are newer, have a higher cap cost, are more fuel efficient, less costly to operate, lighter, smaller (fewer seats, less payload), less flexibility from an avionics perspective, The 500 series are older, have less capital cost to acquire, are more expensive to operate, have more seats, carry more payload, heavier, have more flexibility to integrate aftermarket avionics and offer thrust reversers that are beneficial with contaminated runways. These well-documented differences can easily be determined with a few strokes of the keyboard in Google.
The purpose of this discussion is to highlight some systems differences that came up during my type rating. These things jumped out at me as I went through class.
Certification 23 vs 25. The 525 series is a part 23 certified aircraft (ironic huh? Maybe it should have been a 523 series?) The 525 is certified as a Single pilot aircraft whereas the 500 series is a two pilot aircraft that requires an exemption to fly it single pilot. The exceptions being 501SP and 551SP. The 525 recurrent is a 3 day class with a progressive check ride whereas the 500 series recurrent is a 5 day class with a standard non recurrent check ride. Engines/Fuel: Obviously P&W vs Williams. Williams requires an engine program and Pratts do not. There are several material differences in engine design but from a “what the pilot can control” it should be noted that Pratts require Prist, Williams don’t. Pratts can burn Av Gas, goat piss, water, etc. Williams can ONLY burn Jet fuel. The 525’s burn less fuel but also hold less fuel. In the end it favors the 525 from a range perspective. Especially the CJ2 and up models because of their ability to get to FL450. The CJ, CJ1, CJ1+ are 410 aricraft and the CJ2 up are 450. In the 500 series the 500 are 410, the 550 is 430 and the 560 and up are 450. Fuel in the 525 has a transfer system to direct fuel to the tank feeding the operating engine. The 500 has a cross feed system which requires more pumps and more operational complexity.
Electrical Systems: 500 series have DC & AC busses and hence require an inverter that could result in failures. The 525 series do not have an AC bus. The avionics themselves have AC built into each unit but nothing that is controllable by the pilot.
The 525 also has a cross control bus on the pilot side that allows for removing the power to the copilot bus with a single circuit breaker. Useful in an electrical fire situation. In the 525 you can disconnect the battery from the within the cockpit in the event of a situation like a hung starter occurs. In the 500 series, you have to exit the cockpit with the engines running to disconnect the battery or have someone externally do it.
The 525 series also provide Aft J- Box bus circuit breakers (current limiters) in the cockpit whereas the 500 series has them located out of the pilots reach in the hellhole. They are also annunciated better in the 525 series vs the 500 series.
The 525 series has both Master Caution and Master Warning annunciators that effectively grab the pilot’s attention whereas the 500 series has only a master warning.
The standby gyro switch is large and next to the avionics switch in full view of the pilot vs a sometimes tiny switch hidden under the yoke in the 500 series.
Landing lights are external and may be turned on and visible with the gear retracted in the 525 vs in the 500 where the lights are on the gear and require gear extension to be seen.
Pressurization: The 525 has an auto pressure system that requires the pilot to only set the controller to the field elevation plus 200 feet vs the 500, which requires two setting…200 feet above cruise altitude and then 200 feet above field elevation. The door seal has an annunciator in the 525 series but not the 500 series.
Deice/Anti ice – The 525 series has a hot wing anti-icing system and a tail boot deicing system that when activated operates automatically. The 500 series (other than the Encore) are all manual boots (ok semi auto for one series)
Landing Gear 525 has a trailing link gear system for smooth landings with high gear extension speeds (=>25 knots faster) vs a straight leg, tough to smooth on gear in the 500 series. As previously mentioned, the landing lights are on the gear in the 500 series and on the fuselage on the 525.
Environmental - the 525 has no ACM (air cycle machine). Rather it uses a compressor, condenser, fan system to control temp. Much less cost, complexity, and risk. The 500 series are ACM equipped.
Hydraulic system – easier to access and service. Uses 22382 vs the ugly skydrol fluid
Stall system – 525 has a stick shaker based stall system. The 500 series does not.
Avionics - Modern glass Proline or Garmin in the 525 (except early CJ’s) vs steam and Pimus in the 500 series. Some 500 series have STC’s to upgrade to Garmin 600 series systems. Much more flexibility in the 500 series until you get to the Bravo, Ultra, and Encore. VNAV is not available in the CJ2 or lower and is only available in some Ultras and Encores.
Stopping Systems – the 525 series DOES NOT have thrust reversers. This is a disadvantage on contaminated runways. That said, the Williams engines have far less bypass thrust in idle than do the Pratts so the TR’s are more of a necessity in the Pratt powered machines . The dark side of RT’s are they are heavy and another system to maintain and point of failure. The 525 uses a 60 degree ground flap position and thrust attenuators. Of course, both have speed brakes.
Baggage – The 525 have a much larger rear baggage compartment that is chest high that does not require bending over vs the sometimes absent (in some models) hellhole rear baggage system that is smaller and requires a lot of bending to get access too.
Overall the 525 series is a very well thought out machine. That said, both the 525 and the 500 series will get you where you need to go quickly and safely.
_________________ Mark Hangen Deputy Minister of Ice (aka FlyingIceperson) Power of the Turbine "Jet Elite"
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Post subject: Re: Cessna Citation 500 Series vs Citation Jet 525 Series Posted: 01 Jun 2018, 20:39 |
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Joined: 10/11/17 Posts: 1
Aircraft: DA42-VI
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Thanks for posting that summary, Mark.
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Post subject: Re: Cessna Citation 500 Series vs Citation Jet 525 Series Posted: 01 Jun 2018, 22:13 |
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Joined: 08/05/11 Posts: 284 Post Likes: +47 Location: TX, GA
Aircraft: F33A Phenom 300E CJ4
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Username Protected wrote: Pilot perspective - which is more fun to fly? Definitely the CJ4, but it's a bit of an outlier in this comparison. It doesn't have much in common with the other CJ's and is bigger and much faster than a 560. Super fun with all of the thrust it has.
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Post subject: Re: Cessna Citation 500 Series vs Citation Jet 525 Series Posted: 01 Jun 2018, 23:13 |
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Joined: 05/29/13 Posts: 13587 Post Likes: +10972 Company: Easy Ice, LLC Location: Marquette, Michigan; Scottsdale, AZ, Telluride
Aircraft: C510,C185,C310,R66
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They are all fun. Let’s not kid ourselves. Don’t have CJ4 time but interestingly most people I know would choose the 3 over the 4. I think it is a cost thing mostly. The 4 isn’t that much faster than the 3. But it’s at least twice as expensive. The meta point is the CJ family is a bit like a do over in marriage. You get it right the second time around.
_________________ Mark Hangen Deputy Minister of Ice (aka FlyingIceperson) Power of the Turbine "Jet Elite"
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Post subject: Re: Cessna Citation 500 Series vs Citation Jet 525 Series Posted: 02 Jun 2018, 15:26 |
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Joined: 01/29/09 Posts: 4697 Post Likes: +2404 Company: retired corporate mostly Location: Chico,California KCIC/CL56
Aircraft: 1956 Champion 7EC
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Quote: Super fun with all of the thrust it has. We dropped at Signature at EWR. Going home empty, light on fuel... taxied to 22R at the approach end displaced threshold (north of 29). There was a widebody (don't remember what) at "W" waiting to depart. We launched and rotated within the displacement right in front of his (her?) nose. I wondered what they thought of how little runway we needed. It is quick when heavy, but a rocket when light. Sometimes it's nice being retired, but I miss that plane.
_________________ Jeff
soloed in a land of Superhomers/1959 Cessna 150, retired with Proline 21/ CJ4.
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Post subject: Re: Cessna Citation 500 Series vs Citation Jet 525 Series Posted: 02 Jun 2018, 15:48 |
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Joined: 09/02/09 Posts: 8454 Post Likes: +8428 Company: OAA Location: Oklahoma City - PWA/Calistoga KSTS
Aircraft: UMF3, UBF 2, P180 II
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Username Protected wrote: Avionics - Modern glass Proline or Garmin in the 525 (except early CJ’s) ...VNAV is not available in the CJ2 or lower ...
This is surprising.
_________________ Travel Air B4000, Waco UBF2,UMF3,YMF5, UPF7,YKS 6, Fairchild 24W, Cessna 120 Never enough!
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Post subject: Re: Cessna Citation 500 Series vs Citation Jet 525 Series Posted: 02 Jun 2018, 15:59 |
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Joined: 01/08/11 Posts: 925 Post Likes: +1278 Location: California
Aircraft: C182 B350
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Username Protected wrote: Avionics - Modern glass Proline or Garmin in the 525 (except early CJ’s) ...VNAV is not available in the CJ2 or lower ...
This is surprising.
Only applies to the old ones. The G3000 in the M2 (C25M) has wonderfully capable VNAV.
_________________ NOT FOR NAVIGATIONAL USE
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Post subject: Re: Cessna Citation 500 Series vs Citation Jet 525 Series Posted: 02 Jun 2018, 17:52 |
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Joined: 04/16/10 Posts: 2031 Post Likes: +886 Location: Wisconsin
Aircraft: CJ4, AmphibBeaver
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As does the CJ with G1000
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Post subject: Re: Cessna Citation 500 Series vs Citation Jet 525 Series Posted: 02 Jun 2018, 19:52 |
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Joined: 09/02/09 Posts: 8454 Post Likes: +8428 Company: OAA Location: Oklahoma City - PWA/Calistoga KSTS
Aircraft: UMF3, UBF 2, P180 II
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So the Mustang G1000 installation can do climb via and descend via with the intermediate altitudes automatically inserted when the SID/STAR is loaded and the Proline 21 in a CJ2 cannot? I don't know anything about PL21 except that I thought I'd heard that one of the big deals about an FMS system was VNAV and that the knock on G1000 I've also heard is that it really doesn't do that sort of thing well.
_________________ Travel Air B4000, Waco UBF2,UMF3,YMF5, UPF7,YKS 6, Fairchild 24W, Cessna 120 Never enough!
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Post subject: Re: Cessna Citation 500 Series vs Citation Jet 525 Series Posted: 02 Jun 2018, 20:55 |
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Joined: 05/29/13 Posts: 13587 Post Likes: +10972 Company: Easy Ice, LLC Location: Marquette, Michigan; Scottsdale, AZ, Telluride
Aircraft: C510,C185,C310,R66
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Username Protected wrote: So the Mustang G1000 installation can do climb via and descend via with the intermediate altitudes automatically inserted when the SID/STAR is loaded and the Proline 21 in a CJ2 cannot? I don't know anything about PL21 except that I thought I'd heard that one of the big deals about an FMS system was VNAV and that the knock on G1000 I've also heard is that it really doesn't do that sort of thing well. CJ2 doesn’t have VNAV. CJ2+ does. Amazing huh?
_________________ Mark Hangen Deputy Minister of Ice (aka FlyingIceperson) Power of the Turbine "Jet Elite"
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Post subject: Re: Cessna Citation 500 Series vs Citation Jet 525 Series Posted: 02 Jun 2018, 21:51 |
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Joined: 12/03/14 Posts: 19252 Post Likes: +23622 Company: Ciholas, Inc Location: KEHR
Aircraft: C560V
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Username Protected wrote: Another small but meaningful benefit. Hydraulic system on the baggage door. Vs old mechanical system with a lock that people always try to force close and break. There is an upgrade the legacy airplanes to a similar system using a gas spring. Mike C.
_________________ Email mikec (at) ciholas.com
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