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 Post subject: Re: Cessna Citation 500 Series vs Citation Jet 525 Series
PostPosted: 07 Jul 2018, 11:42 
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Electric heat on pilot glass. Not sure of thickness. Copilot side is “plastic”. You can often see bubbles around pilot glass as the beginning signs of a delamination. This can be caused by using the heat on the ground, or by waiting until ice builds to turn the heat on which insulates the windshield and can cause a crack. I have read KingAirs are prone to this.


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 Post subject: Re: Cessna Citation 500 Series vs Citation Jet 525 Series
PostPosted: 07 Jul 2018, 17:04 
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Location: Byron Bay,NSW Australia
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Username Protected wrote:
Just wish for a glass windshield really.


Agreed I had a discussion with the Textron Pilot about it. In Aus we always have an issue with the WS fogging up on landing due to the humidity. I use the Defoe and WS bleed on every landing.

We landed at SYDNEY and we had build up on the descent and its a fair taxi to the GA ramp. By the time we got there the Left and Righ side windows had completely fogged but I could still see out the front. The line guys wanted us to enter and turn around to the direction we had entered in a position to out left. I lost sight of them as we passed due to the ramo lights anf the effect on the fogged windows. Such a pain.

We shut down and I said to the Pilot and Textron rep that it’s incredible that a plane worth this much suffers from a problem still that has been around for 20 years they both agreed. They said there was a big effort to get glass into the CJ3+ but they gave up. Maintained something about the glass form / shape and not being able to get the heat working without breaking. I actually thought the CJ4 had it so it wouldn’t be an issue. Maybe that’s not right.

It sure was an incredible plane and I loved flying it, thats definitely its weak point.

Andrew


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 Post subject: Re: Cessna Citation 500 Series vs Citation Jet 525 Series
PostPosted: 08 Jul 2018, 00:40 
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The CJ4 and the Mustang both have electrically heated glass windshields.


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 Post subject: Re: Cessna Citation 500 Series vs Citation Jet 525 Series
PostPosted: 08 Jul 2018, 10:30 
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Aircraft: C55, PC-12
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I got my wife to go look at a friend’s CJ3 a couple of nights ago. New P&I and Fusion panel it looks like a new airplane. Her comments were that she though she had a more comfortable seat in my TBM and, other than the potty didn’t think it was much of an upgrade for her. That didn’t help me either!

I agree with you though!


I couldn't sell the CJ2 on the ground either. The KA cabin was bigger and more comfortable. Take her on a trip in it and it changes everything.

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John Lockhart
Phoenix, AZ
Ridgway, CO


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 Post subject: Re: Cessna Citation 500 Series vs Citation Jet 525 Series
PostPosted: 08 Jul 2018, 16:02 
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Joined: 01/01/10
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I couldn't sell the CJ2 on the ground either. The KA cabin was bigger and more comfortable. Take her on a trip in it and it changes everything.

My point, exactly.

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 Post subject: Re: Cessna Citation 500 Series vs Citation Jet 525 Series
PostPosted: 10 Jul 2018, 02:33 
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Joined: 12/09/13
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Location: KICT/KFFZ/KLAS
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Username Protected wrote:
Just wish for a glass windshield really.

Not if you are paying to replace it.

Mike C.


You must not be familiar with the infamous CJ windshields. $40,000 of plastic. One wrong move cleaning bugs off and the whole thing has to go.

The glass on the CJ4 is a dream. I've never even heard of one being replaced.

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 Post subject: Re: Cessna Citation 500 Series vs Citation Jet 525 Series
PostPosted: 10 Jul 2018, 02:37 
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Username Protected wrote:
Just wish for a glass windshield really.


Agreed I had a discussion with the Textron Pilot about it. In Aus we always have an issue with the WS fogging up on landing due to the humidity. I use the Defoe and WS bleed on every landing.

We landed at SYDNEY and we had build up on the descent and its a fair taxi to the GA ramp. By the time we got there the Left and Righ side windows had completely fogged but I could still see out the front. The line guys wanted us to enter and turn around to the direction we had entered in a position to out left. I lost sight of them as we passed due to the ramo lights anf the effect on the fogged windows. Such a pain.

We shut down and I said to the Pilot and Textron rep that it’s incredible that a plane worth this much suffers from a problem still that has been around for 20 years they both agreed. They said there was a big effort to get glass into the CJ3+ but they gave up. Maintained something about the glass form / shape and not being able to get the heat working without breaking. I actually thought the CJ4 had it so it wouldn’t be an issue. Maybe that’s not right.

It sure was an incredible plane and I loved flying it, thats definitely its weak point.

Andrew



We use defog, but no bleed. I've heard the windows are only rated to so many bleed air cycles and using the bleed without ice causes them to delaminate prematurely. I don't know if it's true or not, I don't want to find out either. :duck:

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 Post subject: Re: Cessna Citation 500 Series vs Citation Jet 525 Series
PostPosted: 10 Jul 2018, 09:23 
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The glass on the CJ4 is a dream. I've never even heard of one being replaced.

The oldest one is 8 years old, so I hope you haven't heard about one being replaced.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: Cessna Citation 500 Series vs Citation Jet 525 Series
PostPosted: 10 Jul 2018, 10:03 
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[/quote]
We use defog, but no bleed. I've heard the windows are only rated to so many bleed air cycles and using the bleed without ice causes them to delaminate prematurely. I don't know if it's true or not, I don't want to find out either. :duck:[/quote]

I have never heard anything like that about the 500 series and I have 15 years experience with them. You can melt them if something goes wrong and or stupid.


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 Post subject: Re: Cessna Citation 500 Series vs Citation Jet 525 Series
PostPosted: 10 Jul 2018, 14:10 
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Aircraft: 1993 Bonanza A36TN
Looking in from outside the turbine world, that's one thing that comes up repeatedly, the cost of windshields. I get that turbine engines are expensive, they're made of exotic materials exactingly machined, but windshields? Those kinds of prices for plastic and glass just leave me shaking my head.


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 Post subject: Re: Cessna Citation 500 Series vs Citation Jet 525 Series
PostPosted: 10 Jul 2018, 14:18 
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Username Protected wrote:
Looking in from outside the turbine world, that's one thing that comes up repeatedly, the cost of windshields. I get that turbine engines are expensive, they're made of exotic materials exactingly machined, but windshields? Those kinds of prices for plastic and glass just leave me shaking my head.

Take 5 PSI (lbs per square inch) and multiply by square inches in the windshield to see the forces outward. Then take the barber pole speed and think of bird strikes. Then add in anti-ice -- heat of some kind. It's tough duty.


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 Post subject: Re: Cessna Citation 500 Series vs Citation Jet 525 Series
PostPosted: 10 Jul 2018, 18:02 
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5 psi? Try 8.5 psi. It's a serious load.

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 Post subject: Re: Cessna Citation 500 Series vs Citation Jet 525 Series
PostPosted: 10 Jul 2018, 20:03 
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Joined: 12/24/07
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Location: Akron, Ohio
Aircraft: C550 - C560
Username Protected wrote:
Looking in from outside the turbine world, that's one thing that comes up repeatedly, the cost of windshields. I get that turbine engines are expensive, they're made of exotic materials exactingly machined, but windshields? Those kinds of prices for plastic and glass just leave me shaking my head.


New front windscreens are about 18-20k each with about 90 - 100 hrs to replace. We replaced one side window recently (there’s an inner and outer panel)and it was 22k for the outer panel and about 60hrs in labor.

They do a prism check with every phase one and two on the 550. Any three consecutive bolt holes with cracks is required replacement. You’ll most likely know your looking at replacement when you start seeing cracks in the top corners which seem to have the most stress.

Good thing they are well built and can last for over 20 years and longer before replacement.

Gary


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 Post subject: Re: Cessna Citation 500 Series vs Citation Jet 525 Series
PostPosted: 11 Jul 2018, 03:01 
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Location: Byron Bay,NSW Australia
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Username Protected wrote:
I have never heard anything like that about the 500 series and I have 15 years experience with them. You can melt them if something goes wrong and or stupid.


Sure can, here is a cool shot of resultant damage.

Story I was told was that operator always left WS Bleed values on max. Had a WS bleed value fail and as they valves were on max no protection from temp (as switch was off) of pressure sensors as valves were on max.

Incredible the crystals it created. They ground them off and flew to a service centre fro repair the story goes.

Andrew.


Please login or Register for a free account via the link in the red bar above to download files.


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 Post subject: Re: Cessna Citation 500 Series vs Citation Jet 525 Series
PostPosted: 11 Jul 2018, 08:10 
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One thing that hasn't been mentioned is the availability of used parts on the 500s. Parts are extremely cheap on them. For example, we are replacing a cockpit side window with a used one for about $2K including labor. It sounds like a a 525 part is 22K installed.


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