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 Post subject: Re: Cessna Citation 500 Series vs Citation Jet 525 Series
PostPosted: 18 Jun 2018, 19:14 
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Ultra panel


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 Post subject: Re: Cessna Citation 500 Series vs Citation Jet 525 Series
PostPosted: 18 Jun 2018, 19:18 
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Username Protected wrote:
Ultra panel

I think that shows GTNs installed, but also retention of the Honeywell displays (CRTs) and also the AP it came with.

I take it the issue is the displays cannot be removed since they are the AP control head.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: Cessna Citation 500 Series vs Citation Jet 525 Series
PostPosted: 18 Jun 2018, 19:22 
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Username Protected wrote:
Ultra panel

I think that shows GTNs installed, but also retention of the Honeywell displays (CRTs) and also the AP it came with.

I take it the issue is the displays cannot be removed since they are the AP control head.

Mike C.


There is a stand-alone autopilot control head (PC-400), but the Autopilot/Flight Director is part of the dual IC-600 Symbol generators (which also drive the displays).

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 Post subject: Re: Cessna Citation 500 Series vs Citation Jet 525 Series
PostPosted: 18 Jun 2018, 19:24 
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Username Protected wrote:
There is a stand-alone autopilot control head (PC-400), but the Autopilot/Flight Director is part of the dual IC-600 Symbol generators (which also drive the displays).

Is it possible (technically) to keep the SGs and ditch the displays, and control the AP via the control head?

This is getting very frankenplane, of course.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: Cessna Citation 500 Series vs Citation Jet 525 Series
PostPosted: 18 Jun 2018, 21:06 
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Username Protected wrote:
There is a stand-alone autopilot control head (PC-400), but the Autopilot/Flight Director is part of the dual IC-600 Symbol generators (which also drive the displays).

Is it possible (technically) to keep the SGs and ditch the displays, and control the AP via the control head?

This is getting very frankenplane, of course.

Mike C.


I don't think so, since all the AP/FD annunciations/states are on the displays. Also, sensor reversion switching is done through the displays.

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 Post subject: Re: Cessna Citation 500 Series vs Citation Jet 525 Series
PostPosted: 18 Jun 2018, 22:27 
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Company: Easy Ice, LLC
Location: Marquette, Michigan; Scottsdale, AZ, Telluride
Aircraft: C510,C185,C310,R66
The V has always been a superior machine vs the Ultra for this reason. It is the biggest, fastest aircraft built that you could upgrade the entire panel like you can a BO or Baron i.e. Garmin suite.

Let’s face it... modern panels appeal to BTers.

I can have the same panel in the 185/310/550/560. Appealing.

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 Post subject: Re: Cessna Citation 500 Series vs Citation Jet 525 Series
PostPosted: 18 Jun 2018, 23:06 
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Username Protected wrote:
I don't think so, since all the AP/FD annunciations/states are on the displays. Also, sensor reversion switching is done through the displays.

Okay, so the only hope for the Ultra is that Garmin STCs the GFC600 autopilot for it and then you can pull all the antique electronics out and replace it with G600, GTN750, GFC600. Fully Garminize it.

We can hope this comes to pass someday. Until there is a new autopilot, you can't touch the CRT tubes and have to pay whatever it takes to fix them when they break.

Now I understand why there are so many for sale. You have to maintain them like a 25 inch console TV from 25 years ago.

Maybe it would be cheaper to buy a V, upgrade it, and get an STC to fit the JT15D-5D engines to it, in effect making it an Ultra.

Immovable avionics can kill an airframe.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: Cessna Citation 500 Series vs Citation Jet 525 Series
PostPosted: 19 Jun 2018, 01:46 
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I would have strongly considered an Ultra if it weren’t for this limitation. I’m sure it affects liquidity as well, that may be why so many are for sale.

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 Post subject: Re: Cessna Citation 500 Series vs Citation Jet 525 Series
PostPosted: 19 Jun 2018, 08:36 
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Honeywell came out with the LCD DU-875 to replace the CRT DU-870 displays. I want to say the price was around 40K each, with your old CRT trade, in during the promotion.

https://www.honeywell.com/newsroom/pres ... imus-elite

We have operated our Ultra for 10 years and have replaced one PFD, two years ago, and it came with the airplane in 94. I believe we paid 22K for an overhauled exchange unit. There are at least two companies that overhaul the 870's.

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... those-crts

I believe Jettech is also working on a Primus 1000 replacement and or display replacement.


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 Post subject: Re: Cessna Citation 500 Series vs Citation Jet 525 Series
PostPosted: 19 Jun 2018, 08:43 
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Mike C,

The Citation V is a beast too man. I wouldn't get too hung up over the performance differences between the V and the Ultra. My advice is get a cheap 501SP, get your type rating, fly the tar out of it for 2 years and then get what you really want. I think the 501 is the perfect Citation trainer to dip your feet in the waters and learn the systems. At the end of year 1 or 2, take your 61.58 as a SP endorsement and then you are good to go SP in the V and the insurance company won't give you a stinky eye or a 2 pilot limitation on the V. Perhaps this is my long range strategy too, wink.

Mike


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 Post subject: Re: Cessna Citation 500 Series vs Citation Jet 525 Series
PostPosted: 19 Jun 2018, 09:28 
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Username Protected wrote:
My advice is get a cheap 501SP, get your type rating, fly the tar out of it for 2 years and then get what you really want.

Why wouldn't I just get what I want to start with?

The effort to fly a V is basically identical to a 501SP.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: Cessna Citation 500 Series vs Citation Jet 525 Series
PostPosted: 19 Jun 2018, 09:48 
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Username Protected wrote:
My advice is get a cheap 501SP, get your type rating, fly the tar out of it for 2 years and then get what you really want.

Why wouldn't I just get what I want to start with?

The effort to fly a V is basically identical to a 501SP.

Mike C.


The V is quite a bit sportier and the insurance is likely going to make you cart around a first officer for a while.

Last edited on 19 Jun 2018, 13:06, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Cessna Citation 500 Series vs Citation Jet 525 Series
PostPosted: 19 Jun 2018, 10:01 
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Username Protected wrote:
The V is quite a bit sportier and the insurance is likely going to make you cart around a second officer for a while.

Checked into that. Had same mentoring requirement, 501SP, SII, or V, before operating SP.

FAA doesn't require anything. I have enough turbine hours I can get typed in SIM and not require SOE. That being said, I will get mentoring even if FAA and insurance don't require it.

Even if it was longer mentoring time in the V, the cost of that is trivial compared to the cost and effort of buying two planes instead of one.

I am NOT a believer in the incremental plane upgrade game. Get what you need/want/afford, then train until you can fly it.

I strive to always buy a plane that I am not qualified to fly.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: Cessna Citation 500 Series vs Citation Jet 525 Series
PostPosted: 19 Jun 2018, 10:39 
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Will this upgrade include the Ultra? (It says all 560's).

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... -citations


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 Post subject: Re: Cessna Citation 500 Series vs Citation Jet 525 Series
PostPosted: 19 Jun 2018, 10:41 
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Username Protected wrote:
Will this upgrade include the Ultra? (It says all 560's).

Well, not exactly. It says "560 series". It doesn't say "all 560s".

My guess is no, that upgrade does NOT include the Ultra, for the reasons previously mentioned, the integration of the autopilot into the displays.

EDIT: Emailed JetTech. For the Ultra, they offer GTN installation. They do not have G600, nor anything else to replace the Primus displays and autopilot. The GTN upgrade does get you ADS-B, but you still have to maintain the CRTs screens.

The CRTs are an issue, see:

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... those-crts

“What’s eventually going to happen,” said Messick, “and this will take another 10 to 12 years, is that these aircraft will be too old and cost-prohibitive to support.”

That puts a sunset date on the CRTs at about 2027 based on the article date of 2017. At that time, the airframe and engines will be fine, but the avionics will kill the airplane.

This article:

https://corporatejetinvestor.com/articl ... -unit-121/

Says there is an LCD upgrade, but also says:

Cathod ray tube units face obsolescence in the near future because repairs to them will not be possible after the end of the year.

Yet another article:

https://www.pentastaraviation.com/news/ ... l-express/

For a limited time, Honeywell is offering a $40,000 trade-in incentive per display replacement.

WOW! $40K discount. That means the list price is probably north of $100K. For ONE display. And there are 3 such displays on the Ultra.

Holy cow.

These things are monsters, 26 lbs each:
Attachment:
du-870-display.png

https://www.ebay.com/itm/273280137518

$2500 for a broken one.

Mike C.


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Last edited on 19 Jun 2018, 12:39, edited 1 time in total.

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