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 Post subject: Re: Entry level turbines
PostPosted: 16 Jul 2018, 21:06 
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Why does a jet type rating need to cost a year/semester of college tuition to obtain? The prices do not remotely resemble the cost to provide this service.

What do you think the cost to provide the service actually is? My guess is that you have substantially under-estimated.

I can tell you this: Norton Aviation is currently backlogged--the demand is high and the supply of good instructors is low. Would you want to take your jet transition training from somebody who got typed a few months ago himself or from somebody who intimately knows the plane, its flight characteristics and how it uniquely fits into the airspace system?

Well, the truth is that those guys--the guys who really know the plane and know how to impart that knowledge to a student--cost a lot. So when you package a program together that includes those costs, you have to charge appropriately for the service. That's where the bulk of the cost comes from.

Ken


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 Post subject: Re: Entry level turbines
PostPosted: 16 Jul 2018, 21:32 
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Well, the truth is that those guys--the guys who really know the plane and know how to impart that knowledge to a student--cost a lot. So when you package a program together that includes those costs, you have to charge appropriately for the service. That's where the bulk of the cost comes from.

Ken


I know what Simcom and Flight Safety pays, and the money is definitely not going to the instructors.


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 Post subject: Re: Entry level turbines
PostPosted: 16 Jul 2018, 21:58 
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Years ago, Eclipse Aerospace publicly announced that it could not effectively support the earliest, most-basic versions of the Eclipse, of which there were only a few examples left (the others having been upgraded to more capable versions). Some time after that announcement, when those "unsupported" versions had lost much of their value and became attractive to bottom-fishers, Mike bought one at a very attractive price.

I assume he was gambling that "unsupported" didn't really mean unsupported. It turned out he lost that gamble, and he parted out his plane when he had no other viable option.


what is the way that eclipse used to turn specific serial numbers of its planes into parts planes? have other makers done this before? the faa allowed this?


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 Post subject: Re: Entry level turbines
PostPosted: 16 Jul 2018, 22:48 
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Username Protected wrote:
Why does a jet type rating need to cost a year/semester of college tuition to obtain? The prices do not remotely resemble the cost to provide this service.

What do you think the cost to provide the service actually is? My guess is that you have substantially under-estimated.

I can tell you this: Norton Aviation is currently backlogged--the demand is high and the supply of good instructors is low. Would you want to take your jet transition training from somebody who got typed a few months ago himself or from somebody who intimately knows the plane, its flight characteristics and how it uniquely fits into the airspace system?

Well, the truth is that those guys--the guys who really know the plane and know how to impart that knowledge to a student--cost a lot. So when you package a program together that includes those costs, you have to charge appropriately for the service. That's where the bulk of the cost comes from.

Ken


I strongly disagree.

All of us learned to fly from instructors with 300 hours TT in 150s or 172s. We got our instrument ratings and multi-engine ratings from similar low time people in a Seminole or Seneca. We are all still alive. These were great instructors that taught us a lot! These jets aren't rocket science. Does the instructor have 3000 hours experience or 1 hour of experience 3000 times? Most are the latter and not the former. I have 400hrs in Eclipses (not much) and 100 hours in Citations (definitely not much) but have signed off 10 people to successfully take their checkrides in jets. I am extremely comfortable instructing in either which is a function of me, not my hours. Someone that actually owns and operates the airplane in real world cross country experience is a much better instructor than someone that doesn't own the type. Very few instructors own or operate the airplanes.

These Norton type people charge an arm and a leg because the FAA has made it extremely difficult to join the good old boy DPE team which is basically a license to steal; not because these jets are hard to instruct in or fly. Let's not deny there's also an element of "this guy is rich, let's screw him". If you fly a jet, you must be rich; charge him?

Ken, you take this Eclipse thing personally; you should not. The Eclipse camp wants to protect the value of your airplanes; I get that, but Eclipse owners have a serious parts supply problem with lots of late model owners AOG. The pitot probes on the Eclipse are dangerous and equally unavailable; serious issue. The company's finances are terrible as are relations with parts suppliers. You quote my parting out of my airplane as a failure. I knew that was a possibility and made money doing so but that's more a comment on the sad corporate policies of a failed company. Eclipses, including any version of upgrades is basically not supported just as mine was. They all should priced at engine part out values.

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 Post subject: Re: Entry level turbines
PostPosted: 16 Jul 2018, 23:21 
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With a legacy Citation, any CFI can sign you off to take a checkride with a DPE; so the supply/demand curves brings training prices to a reasonable level.

Michael does the citation have some sort of exception? I thought you had to have a type rating if you were going to instruct in an airplane that requires a type.


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 Post subject: Re: Entry level turbines
PostPosted: 16 Jul 2018, 23:37 
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All of us learned to fly from instructors with 300 hours TT in 150s or 172s. We got our instrument ratings and multi-engine ratings from similar low time people in a Seminole or Seneca. We are all still alive. These were great instructors that taught us a lot!

Well, Mike, let's agree to disagree. I think what you just wrote is absolute hogwash. Very often, those were *terrible* instructors who didn't know the plane they were teaching much better than the student they were supposed to be instructing. Gosh, I remember my first instructor who, among other faults, had no idea what static wicks are supposed to do when I inquired about them :eek:. Maybe that's the idea--give a student an instructor who doesn't know anything, and force him to learn on his own ;).

In the jet world, we're very fortunate to have some really very good instructors who understand the plane, the airspace system, and how the two interact together.

Look, I get it. You have a different opinion, you've chosen a different path in your instruction. I'm okay with that. But what Norton Aviation offers is quality instructors with lots of experience. One of our Eclipse instructors was commanding officer of an aircraft carrier, has a zillion hours in jets, two successful ejections at altitude, and thousands of hours in the Eclipse. For my money, that's the kind of guy I want to learn from, and that's the kind of instructor Norton Aviation uses. And no; he doesn't teach for free.

Ken


Last edited on 16 Jul 2018, 23:54, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Entry level turbines
PostPosted: 16 Jul 2018, 23:45 
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what is the way that eclipse used to turn specific serial numbers of its planes into parts planes?

They didn't actually turn specific serial numbers into parts planes. They merely announced that since most everybody had invested in upgrading their planes from the very early version Mike purchased on the secondary market to at least a version with FIKI and GPS navigation, that some parts might become difficult to obtain for the un-upgraded planes. Good to their word, they continued to support the un-upgraded planes as best they could, but if you needed a part for an un-upgraded plane that they couldn't obtain and you couldn't get fixed elsewhere, you were out of luck.

FWIW, they told us *years* before they did it that this was coming.

Ken


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 Post subject: Re: Entry level turbines
PostPosted: 17 Jul 2018, 03:53 
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Well, Mike, let's agree to disagree. I think what you just wrote is absolute hogwash.


Not absolute hogwash really. I learnt from the same low time guys. I knew nothing and they taught me enough to pass the Chekride......just!

That being said I really didn’t know jack about real world weather and flying.

I learnt that from flying with a mentor pilot with 20,000 hours flying all over the world. Learning from guys with real experience allows you to explore the real world of flying. Many years ago I wouldn’t even depart if I was suspect of the weather as I didnt know what I didnt know. Flying with really experienced guys expanded that envelope. I cant think of as single time I had to fly in the last 5 years where I didnt go.

That’s just my experience and I knew my limitations, i guess we are all different.

Fly safe

Andrew


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 Post subject: Re: Entry level turbines
PostPosted: 17 Jul 2018, 07:16 
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Username Protected wrote:
With a legacy Citation, any CFI can sign you off to take a checkride with a DPE; so the supply/demand curves brings training prices to a reasonable level.

Michael does the citation have some sort of exception? I thought you had to have a type rating if you were going to instruct in an airplane that requires a type.


Definitely need a type rating to instruct in a jet because you are PIC.

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 Post subject: Re: Entry level turbines
PostPosted: 22 Dec 2020, 04:46 
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Has the DPE situation changed with the Eclipse? I’m not sure what is worse the FAA CAMI or the DPE system.


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 Post subject: Re: Entry level turbines
PostPosted: 22 Dec 2020, 10:51 
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Username Protected wrote:

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Do you still own your Eclipse?

You bet. I occasionally look at alternatives--maybe a nice Phenom like Marcus got or a CJ1 (that I'm already typed in). And then I run the numbers. Neither one of those would do much more for me, and each would cost a lot more to operate. Well, I retired young, and the truth is, I'd rather be retired flying an Eclipse than go back to work and fly a CJ or Phenom. Our Eclipse has been very reliable, taking us to all kinds of far-flung destinations. It's fast, fun, safe, and cost-effective jet transportation.



Ken


Ken, shameless plug here but have you looked at the Avanti? Its faster than the Eclipse, burns not a lot more fuel (580 Lbs/hr) and you could put your Eclipse inside the cabin. Standup cabin. Quieter too...


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