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 Post subject: Re: Cessna Discontinues Diesel Skyhawk
PostPosted: 11 May 2018, 16:00 
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Username Protected wrote:
The real problems were technical. Certification was claimed to be "imminent" in 2014. Now 4 years later, no cert.


That was the 182 based on the SMA engine; this is the 172 which has been in production under an STC for a long time.

In this case, Cessna is not longer going to sell/produce it directly.

Tim


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 Post subject: Re: Cessna Discontinues Diesel Skyhawk
PostPosted: 11 May 2018, 16:08 
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Username Protected wrote:
Well for starters, the injection pump will seize/implode pretty quick. Every diesel injection pump I know of uses the lubricity of the fuel to self-lube during operations. I am unsure if newer direct injection diesels like the CMI motor use a high pressure pump to prime the injectors or not. If so, that pump is toast if you give it a dose of gasoline. Had a friend do exactly that to his nice new diesel MB 2 years ago.


In Diamond's both the AE300 and CD135/155 engines have special pumps which do not depend on Jet-A lubrication (at least that is what was told to me; I never went into a parts manual to look).

Tim


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 Post subject: Re: Cessna Discontinues Diesel Skyhawk
PostPosted: 11 May 2018, 16:09 
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Username Protected wrote:
And this folks is why you don't buy into bleeding edge technology. Huge investment, significant risk of depreciation. We've seen these orphans before Sky Catcher. DA40 in several engine variants, Bendix King KMD840 PFD, etc.


What Diamond has been abandoned?

Tim


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 Post subject: Re: Cessna Discontinues Diesel Skyhawk
PostPosted: 11 May 2018, 16:37 
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Username Protected wrote:
Short minded business models look at bare bone profit today.
Long term minded business models have both, current profit, and future developments.
Of course today's profit is important, but not to the cost of eliminating down stream profit and development.
Aviation is one of those businesses that need to have long term goals. And not really matching today's model of companies being run by a board of investors that need bottom line now.

I think it’s the opposite. There’s no money in designing reengined 172s. CessnaTron has plenty of future development in the works. And it all burns kerosene.


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 Post subject: Re: Cessna Discontinues Diesel Skyhawk
PostPosted: 11 May 2018, 16:52 
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>>less fuel weight (more useful load) for a given flight

Have you run those number, Mike? Energy content, hence range, correlates very closely to fuel weight all the way from propane to bunker fuel...

The HP per pound fuel on, say, turbo-normalized Continentals run LOP is about equal to these aviation diesels...

Paul


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 Post subject: Re: Cessna Discontinues Diesel Skyhawk
PostPosted: 11 May 2018, 16:52 
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>>less fuel weight (more useful load) for a given flight

Have you run those number, Mike? Energy content, hence range, correlates very closely to fuel weight all the way from propane to bunker fuel...

The HP per pound fuel on, say, turbo-normalized Continentals run LOP is about equal to these aviation diesels...

Paul


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 Post subject: Re: Cessna Discontinues Diesel Skyhawk
PostPosted: 11 May 2018, 18:30 
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Perhaps I’m over-simplifying, but if a 2-seat trainer and a 4-seat ‘station wagon’ can be operated on mogas, all is not lost.

If you ground every 100LL airplane, you have basically eliminated piston GA as we know it.

The GA ecosystem can't take the loss of every Cirrus SR20/22, Columbia, Bonanza, Baron, Cessna 172 (recent), 182 (recent), 206, 210, 310, 340, 414, 421, Navajo, Aerostar, Arrow, PA32, Malibu/Mirage, Duke, Aerocommanders, and so on.

Once those planes are gone, the airports won't survive to put 15 gallons of mogas in Aeroncas.

If 100LL goes away without a drop in replacement, piston GA is done.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: Cessna Discontinues Diesel Skyhawk
PostPosted: 11 May 2018, 19:26 
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Username Protected wrote:
Perhaps I’m over-simplifying, but if a 2-seat trainer and a 4-seat ‘station wagon’ can be operated on mogas, all is not lost.

If you ground every 100LL airplane, you have basically eliminated piston GA as we know it.

The GA ecosystem can't take the loss of every Cirrus SR20/22, Columbia, Bonanza, Baron, Cessna 172 (recent), 182 (recent), 206, 210, 310, 340, 414, 421, Navajo, Aerostar, Arrow, PA32, Malibu/Mirage, Duke, Aerocommanders, and so on.

Once those planes are gone, the airports won't survive to put 15 gallons of mogas in Aeroncas.

If 100LL goes away without a drop in replacement, piston GA is done.

Mike C.


I cannot find the link to back up Mike's point, However the last survey I read was that planes which cannot run mogas consume the super majority of the avgas sold in the USA. I am pretty sure it was approaching 80% of the avgas sold.

Tim

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 Post subject: Re: Cessna Discontinues Diesel Skyhawk
PostPosted: 11 May 2018, 20:15 
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Nothing but an anecdotal observation, but I know a guy who works on Diamonds, and those converted MB blocks and gear boxes are not models of dependability. I know of a DA62 that's on it's third gear box on the left engine after less than 500 hours.


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 Post subject: Re: Cessna Discontinues Diesel Skyhawk
PostPosted: 11 May 2018, 21:35 
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Username Protected wrote:
If 100LL goes away without a drop in replacement, piston GA is done.


He's gotta point, ya gotta give him that!

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 Post subject: Re: Cessna Discontinues Diesel Skyhawk
PostPosted: 12 May 2018, 00:45 
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Perhaps with the lack of 100LL California will allow auto gas without the corn squeeze at airports and I can utilize the STC I have with the Deb. Until then no bueno.


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 Post subject: Re: Cessna Discontinues Diesel Skyhawk
PostPosted: 12 May 2018, 06:45 
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I dont understand, did Textron ever got the 172 certified with the diesel or they were working on it? If they did it kind of took them 10 years plus them they scrap it?

Its kind of stupid to buy a new aircraft and have it flown elsewhere to install the diesel under an STC.

Textron owns Lycoming and they want to sell there own engine, thats the only explanation I can find.

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 Post subject: Re: Cessna Discontinues Diesel Skyhawk
PostPosted: 12 May 2018, 08:01 
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Username Protected wrote:
Perhaps I’m over-simplifying, but if a 2-seat trainer and a 4-seat ‘station wagon’ can be operated on mogas, all is not lost.

If you ground every 100LL airplane, you have basically eliminated piston GA as we know it.

The GA ecosystem can't take the loss of every Cirrus SR20/22, Columbia, Bonanza, Baron, Cessna 172 (recent), 182 (recent), 206, 210, 310, 340, 414, 421, Navajo, Aerostar, Arrow, PA32, Malibu/Mirage, Duke, Aerocommanders, and so on.

Once those planes are gone, the airports won't survive to put 15 gallons of mogas in Aeroncas.

If 100LL goes away without a drop in replacement, piston GA is done.

Mike C.


It always scares the crap out of me when Mike and I agree completely. :lol:

Jg
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 Post subject: Re: Cessna Discontinues Diesel Skyhawk
PostPosted: 12 May 2018, 16:56 
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Has anyone heard anything on the "aviation fuel initiative?" The last time anything was updated was at Oshkosh 2017 and the update was feeble at best. Since then any news on the issue of eliminating 100LL has been dead silence.
https://news.erau.edu/headlines/coming- ... -aircraft/
All you really have to do is read the last paragraph to get an idea where this initiative is going.
https://www.shell.com/business-customer ... 71515.html
Interesting article the problems related to eliminating lead from aviation fuel.
https://globenewswire.com/news-release/ ... Field.html
This is the latest article I can find regarding the replacement of 100LL.


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 Post subject: Re: Cessna Discontinues Diesel Skyhawk
PostPosted: 12 May 2018, 22:44 
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Great discussion, thanks for widening my aperture. I was thinking about individual aircraft, not the entire GA economy / ecosystem. I stand corrected.


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