BeechTalk - BT

Username Protected · **Posted:** 19 Apr 2018, 09:20

https://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news/A ... 688-1.html

Piper announced their second diesel plane. So far, both the Archer and the Seminole are used more in the training market and Piper sells more of the diesel abroad. However, does this start to put more pressure on the 100LL in the USA?

Tim

Username Protected · **Posted:** 19 Apr 2018, 09:31

I don't see diesel being anything more than a very tiny niche market in the already tiny market of GA. I think the real next step in propulsion is electric. Battery power density and safety are getting better at a very rapid pace. Except for Samsung of course..

http://sunflyer.com/specifications/

Username Protected · **Posted:** 19 Apr 2018, 09:37

"As are the current Diamond twin diesels that precede it, the Archer DX will have single-lever power controls and autofeathering propellers."

If AvWeb staff can't get it right, what hope is there for CNN.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 19 Apr 2018, 09:43

Username Protected wrote:

I don't see diesel being anything more than a very tiny niche market in the already tiny market of GA. /

A large part of the new GA market is international fleet sales. Singapore Air has to train their 250 hour 777 FO's in something. Rest of the world Avgas is 3X the price of Jet A. Diesel is a HUGE market opportunity.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 19 Apr 2018, 10:14

Good job piper!

Now get on the “innovation” train by:

1. Updating the fuselage with a left side door.

2. Pricing the diesel same as avgas version

3. Have an STC that enables Seminole owners to convert theirs

Username Protected · **Posted:** 19 Apr 2018, 10:51

Username Protected wrote:

I don't see diesel being anything more than a very tiny niche market in the already tiny market of GA. I think the real next step in propulsion is electric. Battery power density and safety are getting better at a very rapid pace. Except for Samsung of course..

http://sunflyer.com/specifications/

Energy storage is not there. And from the R&D press I see, it will not be coming soon. More and more energy storage technology is focused on manufacturing costs, not energy density.

Tim

Username Protected · **Posted:** 19 Apr 2018, 11:04

Username Protected wrote:

I don't see diesel being anything more than a very tiny niche market in the already tiny market of GA. I think the real next step in propulsion is electric. Battery power density and safety are getting better at a very rapid pace. Except for Samsung of course..

http://sunflyer.com/specifications/

Isn't there a $1B (yes BILLION) prize from the DOE going to back years for anyone that can develop a battery with the energy density of gasoline?

Rough math a 1200lb. Tesla battery has 1/7th the energy density of 10 gallons of gas that weight ~60lbs.

Maybe my google sources are wrong, but that seems like a VERY tall order.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 20 Apr 2018, 13:35

Username Protected wrote:

Good job piper!

Now get on the “innovation” train by:

1. Updating the fuselage with a left side door.

2. Pricing the diesel same as avgas version

3. Have an STC that enables Seminole owners to convert theirs

1. De-burring and Chamfering the main wing spar bolt holes :bang:

Username Protected · **Posted:** 20 Apr 2018, 13:52

Username Protected wrote:

Good job piper!

Now get on the “innovation” train by:

1. Updating the fuselage with a left side door.

2. Pricing the diesel same as avgas version

3. Have an STC that enables Seminole owners to convert theirs

1. De-burring and Chamfering the main wing spar bolt holes :bang:

Username Protected · **Posted:** 20 Apr 2018, 15:15

Username Protected wrote:

I don't see diesel being anything more than a very tiny niche market in the already tiny market of GA. I think the real next step in propulsion is electric. Battery power density and safety are getting better at a very rapid pace. Except for Samsung of course..

http://sunflyer.com/specifications/

Isn't there a $1B (yes BILLION) prize from the DOE going to back years for anyone that can develop a battery with the energy density of gasoline?

Rough math a 1200lb. Tesla battery has 1/7th the energy density of 10 gallons of gas that weight ~60lbs.

Maybe my google sources are wrong, but that seems like a VERY tall order.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 20 Apr 2018, 15:17

Username Protected wrote:

Rough math a 1200lb. Tesla battery has 1/7th the energy density of 10 gallons of gas that weight ~60lbs.

Your math seems to be quite off. The most efficient comparable sedans (size and performance) need to burn about 10 gallons to go about 250 miles that Tesla will do on that battery so I'd say the energy content of that battery is about equal to the energy density of 10 gallons of gas.

Otherwise you're spot on, it's going to be a very long time before we can have true cross country electric airplane.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 20 Apr 2018, 15:22

Username Protected wrote:

Rough math a 1200lb. Tesla battery has 1/7th the energy density of 10 gallons of gas that weight ~60lbs.

Your math seems to be quite off. The most efficient comparable sedans (size and performance) need to burn about 10 gallons to go about 250 miles that Tesla will do on that battery so I'd say the energy content of that battery is about equal to the energy density of 10 gallons of gas.

Otherwise you're spot on, it's going to be a very long time before we can have true cross country electric airplane.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 20 Apr 2018, 15:43

Even a simple trainer that can fly 90 minutes on a hot swappable battery would be transformative

Username Protected · **Posted:** 20 Apr 2018, 16:27

Username Protected wrote:

A good video explaining the differences in energy densities:

[youtube]https://youtu.be/oJ8Cf0vWmxE[/youtube]

What I find interesting about this presentation is his assumption that the energy to charge the batteries comes from renewable sources. Such is not the case in much of the country where electricity is generated from coal and natural gas power plants. As I would ask a friend who leased an electric car for three years, "How many miles per ton of coal does that thing get?"

I have no doubt that battery technology will continue to improve and it may in the long run be a fine partial substitute for carbon-based fuels but someone is going to have to explain what they are going to do with all the battery waste. In my business (environmental) battery manufacturers are a great source of revenue from releases of metals and corrosives.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 20 Apr 2018, 16:53

Username Protected wrote:

Rough math a 1200lb. Tesla battery has 1/7th the energy density of 10 gallons of gas that weight ~60lbs.

Your math seems to be quite off. The most efficient comparable sedans (size and performance) need to burn about 10 gallons to go about 250 miles that Tesla will do on that battery so I'd say the energy content of that battery is about equal to the energy density of 10 gallons of gas.

Otherwise you're spot on, it's going to be a very long time before we can have true cross country electric airplane.

Another Diesel Plane