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 Post subject: Re: Know Your Customer
PostPosted: 12 Mar 2018, 16:30 
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Ha! No, it was pristine. They only flew it twice. Once into Mexico from my office at KSAT, and then once back into Texas. I tried to buy the aircraft back, but it was auctioned off at retail by the Feds. That was a good SR-22.

In hind sight, I wish I had the clarity of mind to see what was happening during the demo/closing so I could have warned my DEA buddy. That would have been fun. Oh well.

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David Welch
Avacquire, Inc.
Aircraft Broker
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 Post subject: Re: Know Your Customer
PostPosted: 12 Mar 2018, 19:21 
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Username Protected wrote:
I am a newbie on this forum, but am a 30+ year veteran aircraft dealer/broker. I have known Chip for years. I appreciate the message Chip is trying to covey here. He is a prolific contributor with a wealth of knowledge to share. Earning his living selling aircraft and being on this forum is self serving, but it is also serving the members well. Free knowledge is a bargain!
.
.
.

Thanks for your post. I appreciated Chip sharing some important information with us, and I was appalled at the negative response he got from some members.


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 Post subject: Re: Know Your Customer
PostPosted: 12 Mar 2018, 23:09 
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Username Protected wrote:
Are you implying that "only aircraft brokers know who the drug dealers are"?

Well, that explains a lot...

Mike C.

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Email mikec (at) ciholas.com


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 Post subject: Re: Know Your Customer
PostPosted: 12 Mar 2018, 23:20 
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Username Protected wrote:
I appreciated Chip sharing some important information with us, and I was appalled at the negative response he got from some members.

That happens when smart people see "red flags" of a pseudo expert spreading FUD.

If the post had more particulars, references to the law in question, and examples, it would have been far more helpful, but providing that is work versus just scaring people.

Mike C.

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Email mikec (at) ciholas.com


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 Post subject: Re: Know Your Customer
PostPosted: 12 Mar 2018, 23:35 
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Just another example of a dumb law aimed at one class of people as I'm pretty sure Amazon or Walmart has NOT been targeted by the Feds for not knowing their customer or to put it much simpler just minding their own business.

I am not condoning the drug trade but no way a normal person doing a casual aircraft sale should have this type burden placed on him/her.


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 Post subject: Re: Know Your Customer
PostPosted: 13 Mar 2018, 00:39 
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Joined: 05/23/13
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Company: Jet Acquisitions
Location: Franklin, TN 615-739-9091 chip@jetacq.com
Username Protected wrote:
I am a newbie on this forum, but am a 30+ year veteran aircraft dealer/broker. I have known Chip for years. I appreciate the message Chip is trying to covey here. He is a prolific contributor with a wealth of knowledge to share. Earning his living selling aircraft and being on this forum is self serving, but it is also serving the members well. Free knowledge is a bargain!

(I know the dealers that went to jail or currently are in jail for dirty aircraft deals that Chip mentions. Chip is right not to mention who they are. But I do not know of anyone doing it right and going to jail because the buyer was a crook.)

Here is a short story. Although I concentrate mainly in jets and turboprops, I have sold countless pistons over the years. In one case, in 2004 I sold a Cirrus SR-22 to a U.S. citizen of Mexican origin with "friends" tagging along that were Mexican citizens. I always use a title company. AeroSpace Reports is my choice, but most of them do a great job. I also took a photocopy of his Texas driver license, used contracts, and he wired the purchase price to escrow. Other than the heavy accents and one of the "friends" having a "I'm too cool to even look at you" attitude, nothing was out of the ordinary as I have sold many aircraft to Mexican citizens.

Fast forward two months. A friend from my church who happens to be a Federal DEA agent walked in my front door one day. I greeted him warmly, he responded like Sargent Friday - just the facts, sir. Uh oh. He wanted to see my file on the Cirrus deal. I had kept everything, including the wire transfer confirmation, which turned out to be key information. They used the information to back-track and arrest 9 of a known 12 drug dealers that used the Cirrus to haul cocaine and pot into Texas. That "too Cool" guy was the kingpin. I was never called upon to testify but the paper work proved to be priceless.

The lessons of this story: 1) drug dealers will use anything that flies, 2) always use a title service, wire transfers, and contracts - even for the 152 deal, 3) keep photocopies of everything, 4) use the SDN list but this is no guarantee that the buyer isn't a bad guy because the buyer above wasn't the on the list - but I bet his too-cool friend was - I didn't check because he wasn't the customer. Too Cool was obviously using his "friend" to buy the aircraft.

I am not a lawyer so none of this counts, but here goes anyway. Nothing you can do will absolutely protect you from a bad guy trying to launder money or do some other illegal thing with the aircraft you are selling. But by doing all of the above, you will go a long way to prove you are one of the good guys. If you do all of the above, I believe the worst that will happen is that you have to testify, but I would consider that a duty (if not downright fun) if it means a drug dealer goes to jail.


Hey David,

Welcome to Beechtalk!

It can be a tough crowd around here, but I love these guys.

:bud:

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 Post subject: Re: Know Your Customer
PostPosted: 13 Mar 2018, 00:42 
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Username Protected wrote:
Just another example of a dumb law aimed at one class of people as I'm pretty sure Amazon or Walmart has NOT been targeted by the Feds for not knowing their customer or to put it much simpler just minding their own business.

I am not condoning the drug trade but no way a normal person doing a casual aircraft sale should have this type burden placed on him/her.


Frank, I don’t disagree with you. In the old days it was the DEA and they were pretty civil, wanted to stop the drugs and take the bad guy’s toys... today it’s the FBI and they take this money laundering issue very serious

As far as info, here’s some good guidelines https://gama.aero/wp-content/uploads/An ... edures.pdf

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It’s a brave new world, one where most have forgotten the old ways.


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 Post subject: Re: Know Your Customer
PostPosted: 14 Mar 2018, 15:15 
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Username Protected wrote:
I appreciated Chip sharing some important information with us, and I was appalled at the negative response he got from some members.

That happens when smart people see "red flags" of a pseudo expert spreading FUD.

If the post had more particulars, references to the law in question, and examples, it would have been far more helpful, but providing that is work versus just scaring people.

Mike C.


Must you always be so negative?

Is it that we have discovered another issue that you were not aware existed?

As stated above, I have nothing to gain by bringing this up... as it is a seller issue... and I’m just trying to help and share knowledge.

I’ve gained a lot from your post, even though you are a pseudo expert in aviation and I assume a professional in electronics.
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It’s a brave new world, one where most have forgotten the old ways.


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 Post subject: Re: Know Your Customer
PostPosted: 14 Mar 2018, 15:20 
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Joined: 05/23/13
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Company: Jet Acquisitions
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Another red flag is the presence of an interpreter or a middle man, this alone may be innocent, but if it seems that the actual buyer wants to be anonymous you should pay attention.

We typically say “our client Mr. Smith” not “the customer”

Also, don’t assume that hard negotiating and extensive prebuy mean it is a legit deal. They are constantly changing strategies to stay under the radar.

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It’s a brave new world, one where most have forgotten the old ways.


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 Post subject: Re: Know Your Customer
PostPosted: 14 Mar 2018, 21:41 
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Joined: 07/04/11
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Username Protected wrote:
How many innocent sellers are in a federal penitentiary for this?



Guessing next to none.


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 Post subject: Re: Know Your Customer
PostPosted: 14 Mar 2018, 22:56 
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Do I become BT's latest smart-alec and post something pithy:

* No one has Binged or Googled or Yahoo!ed or turned some other noun into a verb to find out if Chip is full of crap OR at least posted their results here.
- Well, Let Me Google that for You.
- http://www.lmgtfy.com/?q=aircraft+money+laundering


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 Post subject: Re: Know Your Customer
PostPosted: 14 Mar 2018, 23:32 
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That was really cool Bob...

I deleted a post I had written, because it was not airplane related, but a recent deal with a mortgage house got so ridiculous, having to prove I was not attempting to launder, that I liquidated something and paid cash. The government has put such a burden on them ( brokers) that I had to justify every account with where and how I got the funds. I got tired of being treated as a possible money laundering drug dealer.

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Jeff

soloed in a land of Superhomers/1959 Cessna 150, retired with Proline 21/ CJ4.


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 Post subject: Re: Know Your Customer
PostPosted: 15 Mar 2018, 08:15 
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Joined: 10/21/16
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Company: Plane Data, Inc.
Location: North Carolina
Aircraft: Cessna Cardinal RG
I am following up on a previous post I made in this thread in regards to an aircraft title company and any efforts they make to identify potential money laundering. I have not received their official response at this time but in casual conversation with someone at AIC Title I was informed that they do perform a check of the parties involved as part of their escrow service to better understand who they are dealing with.

I should also note here that not all title companies are alike and the larger companies such as AIC Title will attempt to validate the parties involved. Other title companies (mom and pop shops) most likely do not have the resources to do so. If "knowing your customer" is an important part of the process to you and your purchase, then you may want to ask whatever aircraft title company you use for escrow services.

If I receive something more formal, I will pass that along.

Good luck.

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Mike Simmons
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Plane Data, Inc.
800-895-1382
www.planedata.com


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 Post subject: Re: Know Your Customer
PostPosted: 15 Mar 2018, 23:24 
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Joined: 11/18/11
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Location: (West of) St Louis, MO KFYG
Aircraft: PA28 180C
Username Protected wrote:
Just another example of a dumb law aimed at one class of people as I'm pretty sure Amazon or Walmart has NOT been targeted by the Feds for not knowing their customer or to put it much simpler just minding their own business.

I am not condoning the drug trade but no way a normal person doing a casual aircraft sale should have this type burden placed on him/her.


Reminds me of a conversation with a local former firearm dealer. Had his license pulled because he did not have the resources to triple check shady characters. Whilst the local Walmart continued dealing with the same people. When it cost money to draw the line, when do you do so?

I guess us down low in Piper Cherokee land dont need to worry about this as much, though we've got a sweet useful load for those hauling herbs.........

When i bought my plane, i spent a weekend with the seller and his IA doing the prebuy and annual. My wife also along, said we were buying his first child. We all felt good about the deal. Guess I'll need to do more when i move to a SETP.......


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 Post subject: Re: Know Your Customer
PostPosted: 16 Mar 2018, 01:49 
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Alright, you all are starting to get me worried. I just sold a plane. No contract. Wired 60% of the cash, I launched the airplane and he wired the rest once enroute. No worries.

But two weeks later he hasn’t found time to send in the registration paperwork to Ok City.

Can I de-register it on my behalf?

_________________
Last 60 mos: CL65 type rating, flew 121, CE680, CE525S, and CE500 type ratings.


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