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 Post subject: Re: Cessna Ends TTX Production
PostPosted: 10 Mar 2018, 18:15 
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Just landed at my home base in San Antonio to a full ramp of cirrus, Bonanzas and other assorted aircraft and after a closer look at what all the commotion was about it was a cirrus showcase with the cirrus Jet and other cirrus products. Haven't run into anything quite like this gathering around a Cessna or Beechcraft product quite like this one anywhere lately.

HMMM


I was at the event at SSF. Initially I was invited by a friend who owns a SR22 and has a Vision Jet on order. He has been trying to talk me into a SR for the past few years. I took a non pilot friend with me who has been talking about getting his ticket for the past few years. I was really impressed with the event. At least 200 people in attendance I would say. The food was outstanding, and they had Free drinks, and other merchandise and promotional goodies. I would say they had 10-15 Cirrus people maybe more. Bottom line it was not hard to get a question answered or find someone from the company to talk to. They made everyone feel like a rock star. They addressed the wives, their concerns about aviation in a very direct way throughout the night. After showing a short video of the chute saving a guys life on a pitch black morning when his engine went out, the lady in front of me told her husband... "ok you can buy one" the lady behind me asked her man "does our plane have one of those?" He said "no" she said "I want you to buy one of these..."

The big thing I noticed was that 1/2 of the crowd was under or around age 40. I have never seen so many 20 and 30 year olds at an aviation event. I would say 25% of the crowd was 40-55, and the rest over 55. I have never been to a cirrus event before this. Now I understand why they sell so many planes.


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 Post subject: Re: Cessna Ends TTX Production
PostPosted: 15 Mar 2018, 17:15 
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“Now I understand why they sell so many planes.“

Almost like they were actually trying to sell airplanes. A little different than waiting for customers to line up at the door to take one.


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 Post subject: Re: Cessna Ends TTX Production
PostPosted: 16 Mar 2018, 08:25 
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Haven't really seen much interest at all in the company over anything with a reciprocating engine.


Even worse, I heard that before Textron purchased HBC, there were some active improvement programs running on the pistons to improve useful load especially, along with other refinements. Textron stopped all of that activity after the purchase.


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 Post subject: Re: Cessna Ends TTX Production
PostPosted: 23 Mar 2018, 11:21 
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I've made this comment every time this type of discussion starts...

Forget the magazine articles and specs, fly a TTX and a NEW SR22T and it will be obvious why the TTX is going out of production (yes, I've done it several times with different versions).

Part of Cirrus' sales and marketing is LISTENING to customers. Useful load was a problem along with only 4 seatbelts for families with 3 small children. They fixed it along with most all of the other complaints of the earlier models, while Cessna could care less what piston customers want.

I am not just stating my general opinion about Cessna, I have bought two NEW restart Cessna's a 182 and a 206 and long term leased another 182 and a second 206. I've been to the factory, know both my local dealers well, been to Osh and talked to every Cessna rep I could find, etc. You know how many times I've heard from Cessna on any topic? ..... ZERO! I don't care what business you're in, if you don't care about customers you will fail.

BTW- I've almost bought a new G36 several times and you know how much follow up I got.... Zero. Doesn't give me much hope for the G36 either.


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 Post subject: Re: Cessna Ends TTX Production
PostPosted: 27 Mar 2018, 09:30 
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The local Cirrus flight school here just had a similar event/open house. Planes to climb in, the Cirrus jet, a Cirrus simulator and lots of food and beverages. Impressive...and smart marketing. It’s no wonder they sell so many.

I’ve started to get back into golf over the past year as well, and I’ve noticed almost every weekend, somewhere on a course or golf store that some company (Titleist, Callaway, Ping, etc) is out doing “free fittings” and free demos, and come see the hype-type of events. Makes total sense.

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 Post subject: Re: Cessna Ends TTX Production
PostPosted: 27 Mar 2018, 18:57 
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Want to know how good their marketing is? I monitor the Cirrus board on Facebook. Two recent posts of "30 somethings" standing next to their brand new fully equipped Cirrus at delivery. The captions below read "now onto my pilot's license." No joke.

The TTx is a bad ass bird. But Cessna's thinking "if we build it they will come" does not hold water.


Last edited on 27 Mar 2018, 19:41, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Cessna Ends TTX Production
PostPosted: 27 Mar 2018, 19:40 
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Username Protected wrote:
The local Cirrus flight school here just had a similar event/open house. Planes to climb in, the Cirrus jet, a Cirrus simulator and lots of food and beverages. Impressive...and smart marketing. It’s no wonder they sell so many.

I’ve started to get back into golf over the past year as well, and I’ve noticed almost every weekend, somewhere on a course or golf store that some company (Titleist, Callaway, Ping, etc) is out doing “free fittings” and free demos, and come see the hype-type of events. Makes total sense.


You are so right on the golf clubs doing demos and being successful. Callaway recently had a demo day at our course and had their best sales day ever. Then, just last week, PGR Golf was out and had a spectacular day also (and they are very expensive clubs). Yes, marketing works, if done correctly. Congrats on getting back into golf. It is great exercise if you walk and play under 4 hours.


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 Post subject: Re: Cessna Ends TTX Production
PostPosted: 28 Mar 2018, 00:16 
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Cirrus is changing conventional aviation wisdom. The old days of training in a junky 172 and then progressing into a piston twin, to build time and then hopefully move on to something else are gone.

I still believe in building time in a variety of aircraft, but most of the next generation of aviators do not share my outlook on aviation.

The pilot of tomorrow buys a new Cirrus, gets his pilots license in it, and then with just a few hundred hours is ready and willing to fly anything the insurance company will allow him to fly.

I’m still grappling with this issue, but this is the new reality.

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 Post subject: Re: Cessna Ends TTX Production
PostPosted: 28 Mar 2018, 05:23 
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The pilot of tomorrow buys a new Cirrus, gets his pilots license in it, and then with just a few hundred hours is ready and willing to fly anything the insurance company will allow him to fly.

I’m still grappling with this issue, but this is the new reality.

And, other than those of us who did it the old way thinking it doesn’t “feel” right, is there any real evidence that says the new way is less safe?

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 Post subject: Re: Cessna Ends TTX Production
PostPosted: 28 Mar 2018, 05:54 
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Username Protected wrote:
Cirrus is changing conventional aviation wisdom. The old days of training in a junky 172 and then progressing into a piston twin, to build time and then hopefully move on to something else are gone.

I still believe in building time in a variety of aircraft, but most of the next generation of aviators do not share my outlook on aviation.

The pilot of tomorrow buys a new Cirrus, gets his pilots license in it, and then with just a few hundred hours is ready and willing to fly anything the insurance company will allow him to fly.

I’m still grappling with this issue, but this is the new reality.

...and the new reality will quickly meet the old reality. The laws of physics do not recognize any difference between the new and old reality. There are no short cuts in aviation without undesirable consequences. They will bite you every time.


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 Post subject: Re: Cessna Ends TTX Production
PostPosted: 28 Mar 2018, 07:59 
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So you want to be a pilot and fly your family to grandma's for the weekend?

You have boatloads of money?

You're smart and motivated?

Well not so fast....

First you must spend 6 months to a year sweating and then freezing in an old 172 arm to arm with a chubby flight instructor who has vowed not to shower until he gets to the majors.

Then you must buy an old clapped out Cherokee 140 and fly around in endless circles for 400 hours.

Then you must buy a tail dragger of some kind and repeat the 400 hours

Then you must take advanced instruction in acro, instrument flying, weather flying, CPR, outdoor survival, celestial navigation, morse code, avionics, and psychology

Then you can buy your first traveling plane, but you can't spend more than $50K. You must fly ALONE around the country sleeping under the wing, peeing in gatorade bottles, washing up in FBO's, finding spare parts in AutoZone, and eating for days out of vending machines. Do this until you visit every state in the union.

THEN you can join a pilots forum and share the story about when you penetrated an F5 tornado in your 140 and when you blew out the top you were at FL350, a
Cherokee 140 altitude record that still stands to this day.

OR..... you can just buy a Cirrus and take the family to grandmas, but you'll never be a "real" pilot. :shrug: :D


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 Post subject: Re: Cessna Ends TTX Production
PostPosted: 28 Mar 2018, 08:19 
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Username Protected wrote:
So you want to be a pilot and fly your family to grandma's for the weekend?

You have boatloads of money?

You're smart and motivated?

Well not so fast....

First you must spend 6 months to a year sweating and then freezing in an old 172 arm to arm with a chubby flight instructor who has vowed not to shower until he gets to the majors.

Then you must buy an old clapped out Cherokee 140 and fly around in endless circles for 400 hours.

Then you must buy a tail dragger of some kind and repeat the 400 hours

Then you must take advanced instruction in acro, instrument flying, weather flying, CPR, outdoor survival, celestial navigation, morse code, avionics, and psychology

Then you can buy your first traveling plane, but you can't spend more than $50K. You must fly ALONE around the country sleeping under the wing, peeing in gatorade bottles, washing up in FBO's, finding spare parts in AutoZone, and eating for days out of vending machines. Do this until you visit every state in the union.

THEN you can join a pilots forum and share the story about when you penetrated an F5 tornado in your 140 and when you blew out the top you were at FL350, a
Cherokee 140 altitude record that still stands to this day.

OR..... you can just buy a Cirrus and take the family to grandmas, but you'll never be a "real" pilot. :shrug: :D


You have learned well Danielsan.... :D


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 Post subject: Re: Cessna Ends TTX Production
PostPosted: 28 Mar 2018, 08:30 
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Username Protected wrote:
Cirrus is changing conventional aviation wisdom. The old days of training in a junky 172 and then progressing into a piston twin, to build time and then hopefully move on to something else are gone.

I still believe in building time in a variety of aircraft, but most of the next generation of aviators do not share my outlook on aviation.

The pilot of tomorrow buys a new Cirrus, gets his pilots license in it, and then with just a few hundred hours is ready and willing to fly anything the insurance company will allow him to fly.

I’m still grappling with this issue, but this is the new reality.


Not sure that the "new reality" is necessarily bad....

I got into this game late. Did so for business reasons. Based on business & mission, we looked at the most capable plane that the insurance company would allow me to fly & learn in with the proper "adult supervision", (i.e., a very competent, experienced flight instructor).
The choices were either a Cirrus or a Baron. Went with the Baron out of the box with zero experience. So after two years and nearly 500 hours traveling during the week and training on weekends, will be able to transition to a situation where I can travel myself. Not a traditional path from 172 and up, but does that make it a bad path or a bad reality? In terms of building time, no doubt that there is some advantage to building up several hundred hours in a variety of platforms. But is that necessarily better than someone gaining several hundred hours experience in the same platform and having a more thorough knowledge of that particular platform? There are many paths...

The old WWII guys in my family used to say "beware the man who owns one gun". The implication is that he can use it very effectively. I think that the same can be said for the man who flies one plane. But then again, I am a newbie with a lot more to learn.

A business person in his 40s or 50s has different time constraints and resources than a young person starting out. Cirrus has tapped into this vein. Beech/Textron are tone deaf when it comes to their pistons. They are hearing impaired on the turbo side. It is only when you get into the jet realm that they seem to care about keeping products new & fresh.


Last edited on 28 Mar 2018, 10:09, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Cessna Ends TTX Production
PostPosted: 28 Mar 2018, 08:44 
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Joined: 11/03/08
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Location: Peachtree City GA / Stoke-On-Trent UK
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Username Protected wrote:
The pilot of tomorrow buys a new Cirrus, gets his pilots license in it, and then with just a few hundred hours is ready and willing to fly anything the insurance company will allow him to fly.

or...the cirrus is all that they need and want. Not everyone wants to "trade up". An SR22 fulfills many peoples needs just fine, from first lesson till they lose their medical at old age. They made periodically trade into a new one with new features - but still the same cirrus


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 Post subject: Re: Cessna Ends TTX Production
PostPosted: 28 Mar 2018, 13:11 
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As long as one does not over estimate the capability of an SR22 and treats it with considerable respect because it is a high-performance, powerful, fast and thus, demanding aircraft at times, there's nothing wrong with it as a first airplane. The SR22 is not difficult to fly, provided the pilot makes good decisions about his own limits and respects those of the machine.

The economics are a lot different than in the late 70's and early 80's when I learned to fly. In those days, the numbers were not so ridiculously difficult. I could have bought a 5 year old 4-place, fixed gear/prop single for about the same money as a new Ford Mustang at time. It made sense to step your way up and gain experience.

Different world today. Makes more sense to buy the thing you want to fly first.

As long as one doesn't get into his student pilot head that he's just bought a self-driving personal airliner for any time, any weather, as long as he can put the waypoints in the glass panel and hit the autopilot button.

There's also this phenomena today that new Cirrus buyers are repeat customers. They buy a new one every few years. Like people who lease a new Mercedes or BMW every couple of years. That's why there's Cirrus pre-owned programs.

I don't think Textron put any effort into tapping that market in any of the piston lines.

If I worked there, I probably wouldn't either. Get my career anchored onto a mid-size business jet product line and do that for 25 years and retire. Corporate employee survivor package.


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