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 Post subject: Re: Cessna 421 value?
PostPosted: 17 Jan 2018, 15:07 
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Also, the only reason I could imagine both engines needing a bottom, would be a belly landing?


Nose wheel collapse. Not uncommon in the 421s.

Robert


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 Post subject: Re: Cessna 421 value?
PostPosted: 17 Jan 2018, 16:43 
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Username Protected wrote:
Also, the only reason I could imagine both engines needing a bottom, would be a belly landing?


Nose wheel collapse. Not uncommon in the 421s.

Robert

I agree
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 Post subject: Re: Cessna 421 value?
PostPosted: 20 Jan 2018, 15:03 
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Looks like 25 years of missing logbooks. Still a very decent aircraft.


25 YEARS of missing records?!?!?! There is so much information that cannot be accounted for. With that many years missing my guess (and that is all it is) is that the aircraft suffered at least one major damage event and someone thought it was a great idea to discard the log books. Or, the aircraft was repoed at some point in its past and the owner kept/destroyed those records. Or, the records may have been destroyed by accident (fire, flood, etc.) where they were stored.

Pricing aside, why consider this one when there are better aircraft out there?

Good luck.



I’d think pricing would always be a huge consideration.

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 Post subject: Re: Cessna 421 value?
PostPosted: 20 Jan 2018, 15:38 
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The ad says that they have complete logs. Again, unless you're not going to fly in the summer, there aren't many people that will buy a 421 without A/C. Also, the only reason I could imagine both engines needing a bottom, would be a belly landing?

A 421 without A/C? :bugeye: My A/C went out in Houston last summer. I almost abandoned the plane and reported it stolen...

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 Post subject: Re: Cessna 421 value?
PostPosted: 20 Jan 2018, 15:46 
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5. The STOL kit is heavy and slows the plane .

What makes you say this? I have the STOL kit on my 340 and I dont think it would add over a few pounds. The only difference is the flap tracks and a couple of bellcranks. I cant imagine why it would slow the plane much. I see about the same speed ROP as most other 340's. The only thing hanging down is the flap tracks, and they are only a 1/2" thick,so I cant imagine them having much drag.

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 Post subject: Re: Cessna 421 value?
PostPosted: 21 Jan 2018, 11:01 
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Why is this plane only worth <$125k?

https://www.controller.com/listings/air ... essna-421b



I’ve briefly scanned the available information and these are my observations / opinions.

Log entry 07/2004 shows repair from nose gear collapse. Engines and propellers were inspected, repaired as required and approved for return to service IAW FAA manufacturer requirements and industry best practices.

Log entry 07/2004 provides good detail of the nose repair and references a 337 which was filed with FAA.

Log entry 07/2004 shows replacement of Kieth products air conditioning compressor. A/C IS air conditioned.

GNS 530 WAAS upgrade is minor expense for this class aircraft and is easily and non invasively done.

183 gal fuel gives 4+ hours range. Nacelle tanks can be retrofit for more fuel.

STOL kit is a unique feature, purchaser should have a unique need. However the ad shows a useful load of over one ton.

Cape Air is operating 402’s with well over double this aircrafts total time. No airworthiness life limits on any part of the airframe in either hours or cycles.

Aircraft appears to be well priced for what it is.

It will need a THOROUGH prebuy by a KNOWLEDGEABLE inspector.

It WILL need a good amount of maintenance to address prebuy issues and to get it to reliable, operationally ready status. The asking price seems to allow for this.

This aircraft is the epitome of a complex high performance, pressurized piston twin. It requires WELL TRAINED PILOTS to carefully operate its systems and fly it safely.

It requires EXPERIENCED MECHANICS and a properly equipped shop to service and maintain it.

It needs to be flown often.

It requires a significant initial AND ONGOING commitment by an INFORMED owner in time, training and maintenance management and the available cash flow to comfortably support all that this class of aircraft requires.

Like all aircraft, this one is in need of the right new owner.

As priced, with no major prebuy findings it appears to be a reasonable asking price for that right new owner.


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 Post subject: Re: Cessna 421 value?
PostPosted: 21 Jan 2018, 11:25 
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Joined: 04/16/08
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Location: Nevada City, CA
Aircraft: Baron 55 w/550s
I had a '73 B model...loved it. A few points:

This is the first year that pressurization went up to 5.0 psi. This is a big deal.
'73 is also the first year of the longer cabin space, also important.
And the factory engines had a 1200 hour TBO. The specs show an engine upgrade to 1600 hours.
I had the STOL kit...I thought it made a big difference. The 421 was the easiest plane to land I ever had. Would take it anywhere I'd take my Colemill B55.
And, there is something magical about sailing over the Rockies at 24,000' in an amazingly quiet cabin, and being able to get up, walk around and use the potty. Yes, sure, with another pilot aboard. :-)


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 Post subject: Re: Cessna 421 value?
PostPosted: 21 Jan 2018, 12:44 
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Why is this plane only worth <$125k?

https://www.controller.com/listings/air ... essna-421b


421 is generally accepted as a $750/hr aircraft to operate. Call that $75K/yr. Assuming you are going in for a 5 year/500 hr ownership period, that's $400K cash flow in round numbers. Also assume that between insurance/tax/depreciation/cost of capital that hull value costs you 10%/year.

So on a plane that is gonna take $400k to own for 5 years, a $125K plane will cost $50K less than a $225K one.

The low end of the 421 market falls off FAST.


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 Post subject: Re: Cessna 421 value?
PostPosted: 21 Jan 2018, 12:53 
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421 is generally accepted as a $750/hr aircraft to operate.

Accepted by who? I'd say more like $550/hour. That's $250/hour for fuel, $300/hour for everything else.

$750/hour is way up there, that's twin turboprop territory. If you are right, I'm sure glad I didn't buy a 421!

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: Cessna 421 value?
PostPosted: 21 Jan 2018, 14:28 
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$750/hour is way up there, that's twin turboprop territory. If you are right, I'm sure glad I didn't buy a 421!

Mike C.


Twin Cessna Flyer owner cost surveys run in that territory. IIRC that's everything except cost of capital - not a clean DOC for a marginal hour.

But lets assume for 5 years/750 hours say 45GPH block at $5 - $225* 5 = $170K
Hangar = 600 * 60 = $36K
Insurance = $15K
Oil changes @ $1000/50 hours = $15K
Training = $2k/yr = $10K
OH one engine with prop/exhaust/accessories/R&R = $75k
Top/mags one engine = $15k
Annual (inspection only) $20K

That gets me to $346k. 750hrs at $750/hr is $562k - you have $216 left at this point and (unless you're counting a top overhaul) ... nothing has broken and no systems have been maintained/upgraded. You can select from

Boots - $20K
Paint - $30K+
Interior - $30K
ADS-B - $5K+
Heated windshield - $20K
GFC600 to replace semi-supported FCS810 - $30K


There's some subjectivity in this for sure Overall point: even at $550/hr there's really not a way to meaningfully lower ownership cost of a 421 by getting a lower cost airframe. Half the price to buy is still 90% of the price to own.


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 Post subject: Re: Cessna 421 value?
PostPosted: 21 Jan 2018, 14:45 
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Username Protected wrote:
Twin Cessna Flyer owner cost surveys run in that territory.

Apparently, the 421 costs more to fly than I thought.

Given that, I will stop telling people my MU2 costs about as much as a 421 per mile, and now say it costs about the same per hour.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: Cessna 421 value?
PostPosted: 21 Jan 2018, 15:44 
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Old gal in new sexy dress, a lot of miles on her and unknown history, bargain price, what could go wrong.

The 421 is a hugely capable airplane if well maintained, that said there are many if you picked them up for free may still eat you alive in maintenance. Easy to loose sight of the fact that when you pick one up on the cheap, you are still maintaining a complex piece of equipment that if new would be a million dollar plus. You are still maintaining an old tired million dollar piece of equipment, the aero buck on these is more like $5-$10k than $1k.

Don't overlook 12 year exhaust OH requirement. If the cabin door has a snubber on it, I would bet the structure is cracked on the inside of the door next to the door seal area. Common on 3000 hour airframes, almost a given on 8000 hour unit. Spar cracks at main gear actuator attach common and expensive.


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 Post subject: Re: Cessna 421 value?
PostPosted: 21 Jan 2018, 17:30 
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Apparently, the 421 costs more to fly than I thought.

.


Look at the last few entries in the airframe log.

10/19/17 (7794TT) Replace L alternator with serviceable
10/26/17 (7803TT) Replace R alternator with serviceable
11/02/17 (7808TT) Replace L/R alternators with new

That's every bit of $5K in parts. Total bill could push $10K.


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 Post subject: Re: Cessna 421 value?
PostPosted: 21 Jan 2018, 17:59 
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Username Protected wrote:
Apparently, the 421 costs more to fly than I thought.

Given that, I will stop telling people my MU2 costs about as much as a 421 per mile, and now say it costs about the same per hour.

Mike C.


Mike, I literally laughed out loud when I read your post. When I read Charles' post I said to myself "queue the MU-2 mafia" and you didn't disappoint!

My per hour cost is right at $750, and I base at an expensive airport and have expensive maintenance (I like my shop, but I know I could get work done cheaper). The MU2 wouldn't really work for my missions for a variety of reasons, but I do like the plane. The golden eagle has been a great plane for me.

Robert


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 Post subject: Re: Cessna 421 value?
PostPosted: 21 Jan 2018, 20:01 
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My per hour cost is right at $750, and I base at an expensive airport and have expensive maintenance

That's why I think people should know that maybe $750/hour is at the upper end of 421 costs.

Could you fly a jet for the same cost per mile? I would think so at $750/hour.

Quote:
The golden eagle has been a great plane for me.

The 421 is a great airplane.

Mike C.

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