18 Apr 2024, 06:25 [ UTC - 5; DST ]
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Post subject: Re: Cessna 310L overhaul and ADSB cost Posted: 13 Jan 2018, 01:00 |
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Joined: 02/13/10 Posts: 20120 Post Likes: +23596 Location: Castle Rock, Colorado
Aircraft: Prior C310,BE33,SR22
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Username Protected wrote: I spoke with the owner and he said he is trying to sell it. The left engine only has 250 SMOH, and the right has about 1400 SMOH. Basically new props on both sides. So basic math in my head thinks that the expenses coming up are the right engine and ADSB. Both of those engines may have years of life remaining.. OTOH, there may be $50,000 of maintenance needed that’s been deferred the past few years. There are MANY variables...
_________________ Arlen Get your motor runnin' Head out on the highway - Mars Bonfire
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Post subject: Re: Cessna 310L overhaul and ADSB cost Posted: 13 Jan 2018, 01:08 |
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Joined: 05/29/14 Posts: 2883 Post Likes: +2936 Location: CEA3
Aircraft: PA24-260, C340 Ram 7
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Username Protected wrote: Well the reason I ask the question is when I was really young growing up my grandfather had a Cessna 310 that he used to fly us around in. I'm assuming that's where I got the bug to fly. Anyway he sold it about 15 years ago and I looked it up today and found out its in Alaska. I spoke with the owner and he said he is trying to sell it. The left engine only has 250 SMOH, and the right has about 1400 SMOH. Basically new props on both sides. So basic math in my head thinks that the expenses coming up are the right engine and ADSB. I don’t know if John Cruce has a reputable shop or not, but his price sounds “there”, As he said engines and ADS-B for $50k. Murray
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Post subject: Re: Cessna 310L overhaul and ADSB cost Posted: 13 Jan 2018, 02:00 |
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Joined: 06/17/14 Posts: 5003 Post Likes: +1949 Location: KJYO
Aircraft: C-182, GA-7
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...looked at this about a year back for a plane to fly as well as an investment that could also be leased back to a local flight school. I also looked at one of Eagle's Tecnam P2006Ts. Both could meet the mission. On paper the Tecnam would have been much cheaper to operate than dropping $48k-$150k into an old airframe and operating it. Profitability would exist IF we could get 300-400 hours a year on the airframe with 200 of that from instruction. Leaseback also limited the weekends that we could just take the plane on a trip.
What I found is this:
You can get a 470 field overhauled for as little as $16k per side with the average in the high 20 AMUs to low 30 AMUs. Factory remans were in the low $30s consistently dependent upon the shop. New cylinders were another $2k-$3k per side. One of the places included a replacement (serviceable) crank in that price if "ours" was out of tolerance but most did not. Shipping was $500. Removal and reinstall with new mounts was about $1.5k per side if done at the engine shop. Hoses were another $1.5-$2k per side dependent upon the jacket and fittings. I believe the governor was $400 for parts and labor IF nothing was wrong. I looked at new alternators and those were $700 a side. On the high end, removal and reinstallation of the engine with new mounts and hoses plus cleanup and painting of the engine compartment was over $10k per side! There were actually some pretty good prop deals out there and it was a tossup as to overhaul or purchase low time used props ($3-4k/side). Overhaul estimates were just over $2k per side unless the hub or blades needed replaced.
Wiring and installation for the Lynx and Garmin was about $4.5k and upwards of $9k-$10k for the touch screen. Dropping in a 74 to go with the KX-155 and Garmin 430W was about $3k IIRC but I feel that I was missing something with that price. ...maybe a GPS or COM antenna if a separate one was needed.
The P&I were dated but were in fantastic shape on 2 of the birds I looked at. Paint was in the $20s and Interior ranged from $6k for a marine shop that was dabbling in aviation to around $16k.
I did not submit anything to Overhaul Bids or reach out to Mike Busch at Savvy Aviation since we were evaluating aircraft but had not purchased one. However, if I bought an aircraft I certainly wouldn't hesitate to pay the $1k/yr for a twin for his feedback.
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Post subject: Re: Cessna 310L overhaul and ADSB cost Posted: 13 Jan 2018, 02:03 |
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Joined: 06/17/14 Posts: 5003 Post Likes: +1949 Location: KJYO
Aircraft: C-182, GA-7
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Username Protected wrote: Well the reason I ask the question is when I was really young growing up my grandfather had a Cessna 310 that he used to fly us around in. I'm assuming that's where I got the bug to fly. Anyway he sold it about 15 years ago and I looked it up today and found out its in Alaska. I spoke with the owner and he said he is trying to sell it. The left engine only has 250 SMOH, and the right has about 1400 SMOH. Basically new props on both sides. So basic math in my head thinks that the expenses coming up are the right engine and ADSB. I don’t know if John Cruce has a reputable shop or not, but his price sounds “there”, As he said engines and ADS-B for $50k. Murray
+1
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Post subject: Re: Cessna 310L overhaul and ADSB cost Posted: 13 Jan 2018, 02:08 |
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Joined: 05/29/13 Posts: 13585 Post Likes: +10972 Company: Easy Ice, LLC Location: Marquette, Michigan; Scottsdale, AZ, Telluride
Aircraft: C510,C185,C310,R66
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Username Protected wrote: Well the reason I ask the question is when I was really young growing up my grandfather had a Cessna 310 that he used to fly us around in. I'm assuming that's where I got the bug to fly. Anyway he sold it about 15 years ago and I looked it up today and found out its in Alaska. I spoke with the owner and he said he is trying to sell it. The left engine only has 250 SMOH, and the right has about 1400 SMOH. Basically new props on both sides. So basic math in my head thinks that the expenses coming up are the right engine and ADSB. Do it. You don’t have to drop 200,000k. I did everything. Changed the electrical system to support 150 alternator vs stock 50. Hugely important in Ice, Lose a belt and you can’t keep battery charged on one alternator. Pitot, prop drive, heater lights. Nope. The plane is perfect. Right down to integrated sat phone. Gsr56. Plus I am dropping Auracule for Garmins new engine monitoring system all,displayed on the 10 G500txi. Adding another 750 and trading out 650. $35k. Love the legacy. Buy her back and swear to never sell her. Seriously.
_________________ Mark Hangen Deputy Minister of Ice (aka FlyingIceperson) Power of the Turbine "Jet Elite"
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Post subject: Re: Cessna 310L overhaul and ADSB cost Posted: 13 Jan 2018, 11:56 |
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Joined: 01/02/08 Posts: 7234 Post Likes: +5142 Company: Rusnak Auto Group Location: Newport Coast, CA
Aircraft: Baron B55 N7123N
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Username Protected wrote: That is a gorgeous 310, Mark! Indeed it is! Probably the standard by which all others could be judged. Mark, you did a great job restoring and upgrading a really fine airplane.
_________________ STAND UP FOR YOUR COUNTRY
Sven
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Post subject: Re: Cessna 310L overhaul and ADSB cost Posted: 13 Jan 2018, 12:18 |
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Joined: 05/29/14 Posts: 2883 Post Likes: +2936 Location: CEA3
Aircraft: PA24-260, C340 Ram 7
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Username Protected wrote: ...looked at this about a year back for a plane to fly as well as an investment that could also be leased back to a local flight school. I also looked at one of Eagle's Tecnam P2006Ts. Both could meet the mission. On paper the Tecnam would have been much cheaper to operate than dropping $48k-$150k into an old airframe and operating it. Profitability would exist IF we could get 300-400 hours a year on the airframe with 200 of that from instruction. Leaseback also limited the weekends that we could just take the plane on a trip.
What I found is this:
You can get a 470 field overhauled for as little as $16k per side with the average in the high 20 AMUs to low 30 AMUs. Factory remans were in the low $30s consistently dependent upon the shop. New cylinders were another $2k-$3k per side. One of the places included a replacement (serviceable) crank in that price if "ours" was out of tolerance but most did not. Shipping was $500. Removal and reinstall with new mounts was about $1.5k per side if done at the engine shop. Hoses were another $1.5-$2k per side dependent upon the jacket and fittings. I believe the governor was $400 for parts and labor IF nothing was wrong. I looked at new alternators and those were $700 a side. On the high end, removal and reinstallation of the engine with new mounts and hoses plus cleanup and painting of the engine compartment was over $10k per side! There were actually some pretty good prop deals out there and it was a tossup as to overhaul or purchase low time used props ($3-4k/side). Overhaul estimates were just over $2k per side unless the hub or blades needed replaced.
Wiring and installation for the Lynx and Garmin was about $4.5k and upwards of $9k-$10k for the touch screen. Dropping in a 74 to go with the KX-155 and Garmin 430W was about $3k IIRC but I feel that I was missing something with that price. ...maybe a GPS or COM antenna if a separate one was needed.
The P&I were dated but were in fantastic shape on 2 of the birds I looked at. Paint was in the $20s and Interior ranged from $6k for a marine shop that was dabbling in aviation to around $16k.
I did not submit anything to Overhaul Bids or reach out to Mike Busch at Savvy Aviation since we were evaluating aircraft but had not purchased one. However, if I bought an aircraft I certainly wouldn't hesitate to pay the $1k/yr for a twin for his feedback. If you’re still interested in a Tecnam, a local school stopped flying theirs as we’re too high ASL (3600 ft) for them to be used safely. Murray
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Post subject: Re: Cessna 310L overhaul and ADSB cost Posted: 13 Jan 2018, 12:44 |
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Joined: 04/28/09 Posts: 198 Post Likes: +125
Aircraft: C-310K
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Username Protected wrote: ...looked at this about a year back for a plane to fly as well as an investment that could also be leased back to a local flight school. I also looked at one of Eagle's Tecnam P2006Ts. Both could meet the mission. On paper the Tecnam would have been much cheaper to operate than dropping $48k-$150k into an old airframe and operating it. Profitability would exist IF we could get 300-400 hours a year on the airframe with 200 of that from instruction. Leaseback also limited the weekends that we could just take the plane on a trip.
What I found is this:
You can get a 470 field overhauled for as little as $16k per side with the average in the high 20 AMUs to low 30 AMUs. Factory remans were in the low $30s consistently dependent upon the shop. New cylinders were another $2k-$3k per side. One of the places included a replacement (serviceable) crank in that price if "ours" was out of tolerance but most did not. Shipping was $500. Removal and reinstall with new mounts was about $1.5k per side if done at the engine shop. Hoses were another $1.5-$2k per side dependent upon the jacket and fittings. I believe the governor was $400 for parts and labor IF nothing was wrong. I looked at new alternators and those were $700 a side. On the high end, removal and reinstallation of the engine with new mounts and hoses plus cleanup and painting of the engine compartment was over $10k per side! There were actually some pretty good prop deals out there and it was a tossup as to overhaul or purchase low time used props ($3-4k/side). Overhaul estimates were just over $2k per side unless the hub or blades needed replaced.
Wiring and installation for the Lynx and Garmin was about $4.5k and upwards of $9k-$10k for the touch screen. Dropping in a 74 to go with the KX-155 and Garmin 430W was about $3k IIRC but I feel that I was missing something with that price. ...maybe a GPS or COM antenna if a separate one was needed.
The P&I were dated but were in fantastic shape on 2 of the birds I looked at. Paint was in the $20s and Interior ranged from $6k for a marine shop that was dabbling in aviation to around $16k.
I did not submit anything to Overhaul Bids or reach out to Mike Busch at Savvy Aviation since we were evaluating aircraft but had not purchased one. However, if I bought an aircraft I certainly wouldn't hesitate to pay the $1k/yr for a twin for his feedback. Where could one get field overhauls for $16k? Which items are re-used vs replaced?
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Post subject: Re: Cessna 310L overhaul and ADSB cost Posted: 13 Jan 2018, 12:57 |
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Joined: 02/13/10 Posts: 20120 Post Likes: +23596 Location: Castle Rock, Colorado
Aircraft: Prior C310,BE33,SR22
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Username Protected wrote: Ben, there has to be something great about having an old "family friend"....I'd be sorely tempted just because it was my grandads.
Mark, that has to be the ultimate 310.....that is gorgeous.....
(my first twin was a 310. I didn't realize at the time what a great airplane it was/is). The 310 is fabulous! Mine is the poor little cousin of Mark's.... 54-year old body, 34-year old paint, 18-year old gaudy red seats, and 20-year old panel technology (530W and 55x) -- but it's mine and I love it..
_________________ Arlen Get your motor runnin' Head out on the highway - Mars Bonfire
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Post subject: Re: Cessna 310L overhaul and ADSB cost Posted: 15 Jan 2018, 13:01 |
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Joined: 06/17/14 Posts: 5003 Post Likes: +1949 Location: KJYO
Aircraft: C-182, GA-7
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Username Protected wrote: ...looked at this about a year back for a plane to fly as well as an investment that could also be leased back to a local flight school. <SNIP> What I found is this:
You can get a 470 field overhauled for as little as $16k per side with the average in the high 20 AMUs to low 30 AMUs. Factory remans were in the low $30s consistently dependent upon the shop. New cylinders were another $2k-$3k per side. One of the places included a replacement (serviceable) crank in that price if "ours" was out of tolerance but most did not. Shipping was $500. <SNIP> I did not submit anything to Overhaul Bids or reach out to Mike Busch at Savvy Aviation since we were evaluating aircraft but had not purchased one. However, if I bought an aircraft I certainly wouldn't hesitate to pay the $1k/yr for a twin for his feedback. Where could one get field overhauls for $16k? Which items are re-used vs replaced?
Thanks for asking. This was a bit over a year ago and my wife fixed my excess cashflow problem.
A friend of the family graduated A&P school and had intents of setting up shop in the western part Virginia. Guesstimates were about $8-9$ in parts, $2k to send parts off and $3k-$4k to him and some recent grads looking for experience. IF we needed new cylinders, crank, and did not have a successful dye pen then it gets more expensive. About 15-20% of the planes on the market had engines with frequent use since their SFRM or SFOH. Most of these were newer 470s on a ~50 year old airframe.
The only companies we found that could get close to this this were in Wyoming and Plano. The questions you ask are detailed on their site. Heart of the West http://www.hotwaircraft.com/no-surprise-pricing.html A&E Aircraft Engines http://www.lycomingoverhaul.com/contine ... rices.html One of the 310s we eyeballed had a gear up in the late 90s as well as factory remans with fairly low hours in a Midwest climate. There were a few others that had low annual use mid-time engines with recent STOHs that should have had most parts within tolerances. Keeping things in perspective, $27k plus the associated cost for accessories, dismount, shipping, and mounting is a more reliable number that we planned on. If we could have saved $22k across both engines then we would have put it in other parts of the plane. Finding an aircraft with good paint, decent interior, decent avionics and good engines was just part of the process. Fuel was on the way down and it would have taken 5 1/2 years to recoup our investment. We never moved forward with either the Tecnam or the 310s.
However, Momma Bear gave a tentative green light to purchase a turnkey '58 TravelAir. It was a rare TA with dual factory brakes, excellent engines, gorgeous paint, great engines. It met the mission of the school, would get about 50-100 hours from me and 300-350 from the school.
*Telling her that we can live in a plane and can't fly a house didn't work out well; she won and I write this from our new home with a garage. My excess cashflow to lease a hangar, buy a plane, and get engines overhauled OR buy a turnkey BE-95 and get either insured for leaseback burned like a strip of magnesium from an old elevator skin. You just turn away and watch the shadows on the wall. My next fight is that the kids and I can build a Vans kit in the garage and she can take the shorter space for her car. I figure I will just turn away now and watch the shadows.
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Post subject: Re: Cessna 310L overhaul and ADSB cost Posted: 15 Jan 2018, 21:33 |
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Joined: 01/30/09 Posts: 3353 Post Likes: +1961 Location: $ilicon Vall€y
Aircraft: Columbia 400
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Username Protected wrote: You can get a 470 field overhauled for as little as $16k per side with the average in the high 20 AMUs to low 30 AMUs. <BIG SNIP> The only companies we found that could get close to this this were in Wyoming and Plano. The questions you ask are detailed on their site. Heart of the West http://www.hotwaircraft.com/no-surprise-pricing.htmlA&E Aircraft Engines http://www.lycomingoverhaul.com/contine ... rices.html Might want to be careful about those quotes. See this thread: viewtopic.php?f=37&t=51227&start=90, Especially post from 25 Jan 2016. Really have to be careful about engine overhauls that are well below the prices of well known shops. There are spray paint overhauls and really great overhauls and you'll never get more than you pay for.
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Post subject: Re: Cessna 310L overhaul and ADSB cost Posted: 15 Jan 2018, 21:47 |
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Joined: 03/08/14 Posts: 419 Post Likes: +218 Location: LL10
Aircraft: PA-28R-200 Arrow II
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Username Protected wrote: You can get a 470 field overhauled for as little as $16k per side with the average in the high 20 AMUs to low 30 AMUs. <BIG SNIP> The only companies we found that could get close to this this were in Wyoming and Plano. The questions you ask are detailed on their site. Heart of the West http://www.hotwaircraft.com/no-surprise-pricing.htmlA&E Aircraft Engines http://www.lycomingoverhaul.com/contine ... rices.html Might want to be careful about those quotes. See this thread: viewtopic.php?f=37&t=51227&start=90, Especially post from 25 Jan 2016. Really have to be careful about engine overhauls that are well below the prices of well known shops. There are spray paint overhauls and really great overhauls and you'll never get more than you pay for.
This!
My Arrow had an engine that had been field overhauled by someone before I bought it. Log entry looked good as far as AD's complied with and there was paperwork to support inspections and cylinder overhauls.
Engine almost made it almost 350 hours (SOH) before one of the cylinders sheared a bolt and caused a cracked crankcase.
This was due to the hack that did the field overhaul not torquing the cylinders properly. After opening the engine, we discovered that the tappets were not machined properly and were already pitted, amongst other problems that indicated sloppy work. The cases were also showing signs of fretting at the bearing journals.
I am not saying a field overhaul is bad, but you will either pay up front or on the back end.
My engine is currently at a good engine shop getting a custom overhaul. Not only would I rather pay up front for a good overhaul, I want to be as safe as possible when I fly!
Eric
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