BeechTalk - BT

Username Protected · **Posted:** 13 Jan 2018, 01:00

Username Protected wrote:

I spoke with the owner and he said he is trying to sell it. The left engine only has 250 SMOH, and the right has about 1400 SMOH. Basically new props on both sides. So basic math in my head thinks that the expenses coming up are the right engine and ADSB.

Both of those engines may have years of life remaining..

OTOH, there may be $50,000 of maintenance needed that’s been deferred the past few years.

There are MANY variables...

Username Protected · **Posted:** 13 Jan 2018, 01:08

Username Protected wrote:

Well the reason I ask the question is when I was really young growing up my grandfather had a Cessna 310 that he used to fly us around in. I'm assuming that's where I got the bug to fly. Anyway he sold it about 15 years ago and I looked it up today and found out its in Alaska. I spoke with the owner and he said he is trying to sell it. The left engine only has 250 SMOH, and the right has about 1400 SMOH. Basically new props on both sides. So basic math in my head thinks that the expenses coming up are the right engine and ADSB.

I don’t know if John Cruce has a reputable shop or not, but his price sounds “there”,
As he said engines and ADS-B for $50k.

Murray

Username Protected · **Posted:** 13 Jan 2018, 02:00

...looked at this about a year back for a plane to fly as well as an investment that could also be leased back to a local flight school. I also looked at one of Eagle's Tecnam P2006Ts. Both could meet the mission. On paper the Tecnam would have been much cheaper to operate than dropping $48k-$150k into an old airframe and operating it. Profitability would exist IF we could get 300-400 hours a year on the airframe with 200 of that from instruction. Leaseback also limited the weekends that we could just take the plane on a trip.

What I found is this:

You can get a 470 field overhauled for as little as $16k per side with the average in the high 20 AMUs to low 30 AMUs. Factory remans were in the low $30s consistently dependent upon the shop. New cylinders were another $2k-$3k per side. One of the places included a replacement (serviceable) crank in that price if "ours" was out of tolerance but most did not. Shipping was $500. Removal and reinstall with new mounts was about $1.5k per side if done at the engine shop. Hoses were another $1.5-$2k per side dependent upon the jacket and fittings. I believe the governor was $400 for parts and labor IF nothing was wrong. I looked at new alternators and those were $700 a side. On the high end, removal and reinstallation of the engine with new mounts and hoses plus cleanup and painting of the engine compartment was over $10k per side!
There were actually some pretty good prop deals out there and it was a tossup as to overhaul or purchase low time used props ($3-4k/side). Overhaul estimates were just over $2k per side unless the hub or blades needed replaced.

Wiring and installation for the Lynx and Garmin was about $4.5k and upwards of $9k-$10k for the touch screen. Dropping in a 74 to go with the KX-155 and Garmin 430W was about $3k IIRC but I feel that I was missing something with that price. ...maybe a GPS or COM antenna if a separate one was needed.

The P&I were dated but were in fantastic shape on 2 of the birds I looked at. Paint was in the $20s and Interior ranged from $6k for a marine shop that was dabbling in aviation to around $16k.

I did not submit anything to Overhaul Bids or reach out to Mike Busch at Savvy Aviation since we were evaluating aircraft but had not purchased one. However, if I bought an aircraft I certainly wouldn't hesitate to pay the $1k/yr for a twin for his feedback.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 13 Jan 2018, 02:03

Username Protected wrote:

Well the reason I ask the question is when I was really young growing up my grandfather had a Cessna 310 that he used to fly us around in. I'm assuming that's where I got the bug to fly. Anyway he sold it about 15 years ago and I looked it up today and found out its in Alaska. I spoke with the owner and he said he is trying to sell it. The left engine only has 250 SMOH, and the right has about 1400 SMOH. Basically new props on both sides. So basic math in my head thinks that the expenses coming up are the right engine and ADSB.

I don’t know if John Cruce has a reputable shop or not, but his price sounds “there”,
As he said engines and ADS-B for $50k.

Murray

Username Protected · **Posted:** 13 Jan 2018, 02:08

Username Protected wrote:

Well the reason I ask the question is when I was really young growing up my grandfather had a Cessna 310 that he used to fly us around in. I'm assuming that's where I got the bug to fly. Anyway he sold it about 15 years ago and I looked it up today and found out its in Alaska. I spoke with the owner and he said he is trying to sell it. The left engine only has 250 SMOH, and the right has about 1400 SMOH. Basically new props on both sides. So basic math in my head thinks that the expenses coming up are the right engine and ADSB.

Do it. You don’t have to drop 200,000k. I did everything. Changed the electrical system to support 150 alternator vs stock 50. Hugely important in Ice, Lose a belt and you can’t keep battery charged on one alternator. Pitot, prop drive, heater lights. Nope.

The plane is perfect. Right down to integrated sat phone. Gsr56. Plus I am dropping Auracule for Garmins new engine monitoring system all,displayed on the 10 G500txi. Adding another 750 and trading out 650. $35k.

Love the legacy. Buy her back and swear to never sell her. Seriously.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 13 Jan 2018, 11:56

Username Protected wrote:

That is a gorgeous 310, Mark!

Indeed it is! Probably the standard by which all others could be judged. Mark, you did a great job restoring and upgrading a really fine airplane.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 13 Jan 2018, 12:18

Username Protected wrote:

...looked at this about a year back for a plane to fly as well as an investment that could also be leased back to a local flight school. I also looked at one of Eagle's Tecnam P2006Ts. Both could meet the mission. On paper the Tecnam would have been much cheaper to operate than dropping $48k-$150k into an old airframe and operating it. Profitability would exist IF we could get 300-400 hours a year on the airframe with 200 of that from instruction. Leaseback also limited the weekends that we could just take the plane on a trip.

What I found is this:

You can get a 470 field overhauled for as little as $16k per side with the average in the high 20 AMUs to low 30 AMUs. Factory remans were in the low $30s consistently dependent upon the shop. New cylinders were another $2k-$3k per side. One of the places included a replacement (serviceable) crank in that price if "ours" was out of tolerance but most did not. Shipping was $500. Removal and reinstall with new mounts was about $1.5k per side if done at the engine shop. Hoses were another $1.5-$2k per side dependent upon the jacket and fittings. I believe the governor was $400 for parts and labor IF nothing was wrong. I looked at new alternators and those were $700 a side. On the high end, removal and reinstallation of the engine with new mounts and hoses plus cleanup and painting of the engine compartment was over $10k per side!
There were actually some pretty good prop deals out there and it was a tossup as to overhaul or purchase low time used props ($3-4k/side). Overhaul estimates were just over $2k per side unless the hub or blades needed replaced.

Wiring and installation for the Lynx and Garmin was about $4.5k and upwards of $9k-$10k for the touch screen. Dropping in a 74 to go with the KX-155 and Garmin 430W was about $3k IIRC but I feel that I was missing something with that price. ...maybe a GPS or COM antenna if a separate one was needed.

The P&I were dated but were in fantastic shape on 2 of the birds I looked at. Paint was in the $20s and Interior ranged from $6k for a marine shop that was dabbling in aviation to around $16k.

I did not submit anything to Overhaul Bids or reach out to Mike Busch at Savvy Aviation since we were evaluating aircraft but had not purchased one. However, if I bought an aircraft I certainly wouldn't hesitate to pay the $1k/yr for a twin for his feedback.

If you’re still interested in a Tecnam, a local school stopped flying theirs as we’re too high ASL (3600 ft) for them to be used safely.

Murray

Username Protected · **Posted:** 13 Jan 2018, 12:44

Username Protected wrote:

...looked at this about a year back for a plane to fly as well as an investment that could also be leased back to a local flight school. I also looked at one of Eagle's Tecnam P2006Ts. Both could meet the mission. On paper the Tecnam would have been much cheaper to operate than dropping $48k-$150k into an old airframe and operating it. Profitability would exist IF we could get 300-400 hours a year on the airframe with 200 of that from instruction. Leaseback also limited the weekends that we could just take the plane on a trip.

What I found is this:

You can get a 470 field overhauled for as little as $16k per side with the average in the high 20 AMUs to low 30 AMUs. Factory remans were in the low $30s consistently dependent upon the shop. New cylinders were another $2k-$3k per side. One of the places included a replacement (serviceable) crank in that price if "ours" was out of tolerance but most did not. Shipping was $500. Removal and reinstall with new mounts was about $1.5k per side if done at the engine shop. Hoses were another $1.5-$2k per side dependent upon the jacket and fittings. I believe the governor was $400 for parts and labor IF nothing was wrong. I looked at new alternators and those were $700 a side. On the high end, removal and reinstallation of the engine with new mounts and hoses plus cleanup and painting of the engine compartment was over $10k per side!
There were actually some pretty good prop deals out there and it was a tossup as to overhaul or purchase low time used props ($3-4k/side). Overhaul estimates were just over $2k per side unless the hub or blades needed replaced.

Wiring and installation for the Lynx and Garmin was about $4.5k and upwards of $9k-$10k for the touch screen. Dropping in a 74 to go with the KX-155 and Garmin 430W was about $3k IIRC but I feel that I was missing something with that price. ...maybe a GPS or COM antenna if a separate one was needed.

The P&I were dated but were in fantastic shape on 2 of the birds I looked at. Paint was in the $20s and Interior ranged from $6k for a marine shop that was dabbling in aviation to around $16k.

I did not submit anything to Overhaul Bids or reach out to Mike Busch at Savvy Aviation since we were evaluating aircraft but had not purchased one. However, if I bought an aircraft I certainly wouldn't hesitate to pay the $1k/yr for a twin for his feedback.

Where could one get field overhauls for $16k? Which items are re-used vs replaced?

Username Protected · **Posted:** 13 Jan 2018, 12:53

Ben, there has to be something great about having an old "family friend"....I'd be sorely tempted just because it was my grandads.

Mark, that has to be the ultimate 310.....that is gorgeous.....

(my first twin was a 310. I didn't realize at the time what a great airplane it was/is).

Username Protected · **Posted:** 13 Jan 2018, 12:57

Username Protected wrote:

Ben, there has to be something great about having an old "family friend"....I'd be sorely tempted just because it was my grandads.

Mark, that has to be the ultimate 310.....that is gorgeous.....

(my first twin was a 310. I didn't realize at the time what a great airplane it was/is).

The 310 is fabulous!

Mine is the poor little cousin of Mark's.... 54-year old body, 34-year old paint, 18-year old gaudy red seats, and 20-year old panel technology (530W and 55x) -- but it's mine and I love it..

Username Protected · **Posted:** 15 Jan 2018, 13:01

Username Protected wrote:

...looked at this about a year back for a plane to fly as well as an investment that could also be leased back to a local flight school. <SNIP>
What I found is this:

You can get a 470 field overhauled for as little as $16k per side with the average in the high 20 AMUs to low 30 AMUs. Factory remans were in the low $30s consistently dependent upon the shop. New cylinders were another $2k-$3k per side. One of the places included a replacement (serviceable) crank in that price if "ours" was out of tolerance but most did not. Shipping was $500.
<SNIP>
I did not submit anything to Overhaul Bids or reach out to Mike Busch at Savvy Aviation since we were evaluating aircraft but had not purchased one. However, if I bought an aircraft I certainly wouldn't hesitate to pay the $1k/yr for a twin for his feedback.

Where could one get field overhauls for $16k? Which items are re-used vs replaced?

Username Protected · **Posted:** 15 Jan 2018, 21:33

Username Protected wrote:

You can get a 470 field overhauled for as little as $16k per side with the average in the high 20 AMUs to low 30 AMUs.

<BIG SNIP>

The only companies we found that could get close to this this were in Wyoming and Plano. The questions you ask are detailed on their site.
Heart of the West
http://www.hotwaircraft.com/no-surprise-pricing.html
A&E Aircraft Engines
http://www.lycomingoverhaul.com/contine ... rices.html

Might want to be careful about those quotes.

See this thread:

viewtopic.php?f=37&t=51227&start=90,

Especially post from 25 Jan 2016.

Really have to be careful about engine overhauls that are well below the prices of well known shops. There are spray paint overhauls and really great overhauls and you'll never get more than you pay for.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 15 Jan 2018, 21:47

Username Protected wrote:

You can get a 470 field overhauled for as little as $16k per side with the average in the high 20 AMUs to low 30 AMUs.

<BIG SNIP>

The only companies we found that could get close to this this were in Wyoming and Plano. The questions you ask are detailed on their site.
Heart of the West
http://www.hotwaircraft.com/no-surprise-pricing.html
A&E Aircraft Engines
http://www.lycomingoverhaul.com/contine ... rices.html

Might want to be careful about those quotes.

See this thread:

viewtopic.php?f=37&t=51227&start=90,

Especially post from 25 Jan 2016.

Really have to be careful about engine overhauls that are well below the prices of well known shops. There are spray paint overhauls and really great overhauls and you'll never get more than you pay for.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 15 Jan 2018, 21:52

A field overhaul is bad in two ways, as I see it.

1-No experience or second looks usually.

2-If you want to sell the aircraft to another country like Canada, it will not be accepted.

Murray

Username Protected · **Posted:** 15 Jan 2018, 21:58

Out of the last 3 engines I've had to overhaul, two were field* overhauls, one was a factory rebuilt.

Both field overhauls were quite good, not cheapest possible. The factory overhaul was very good actually and was my best path with a non-VAR crank that Continental took back with no extra charge.

A "field" overhaul being one done by someone other than the factory.

Field overhauls include big engines shops like Triad, RAM and Western Skyways, to your local mechanic's shop.

My field overhauls were done by smaller but reputable engines shops, who primarily did engine work.

I have never heard of any issue exporting an aircraft with a field overhaul.

Cessna 310L overhaul and ADSB cost