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 Post subject: Re: C421 - C441 - Commander 1000- Merlin - PC12 - KA300 - KA
PostPosted: 15 Dec 2017, 05:04 
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Great write up. Congratulations! :cheers:

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 Post subject: Re: C421 - C441 - Commander 1000- Merlin - PC12 - KA300 - KA
PostPosted: 15 Dec 2017, 11:29 
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Joined: 05/23/13
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Company: Jet Acquisitions
Location: Franklin, TN 615-739-9091 chip@jetacq.com
Username Protected wrote:
If I can buy a 350 with 1500 hour engines, fly it for 400 hours and sell it for more than I paid for it, including hots... it really doesn’t matter.

Key word "if".

If that is what your customers believe will always happen, then you deserve each other.

Mike C.


Mike, Mike, Mike...

Did you really think I would give you such a specific example if I couldn't prove it?

I have been doing this for a long time. If I couldn't find and negotiate a better deal for my clients than they can do own their own, I would not have a successful business.
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 Post subject: Re: C421 - C441 - Commander 1000- Merlin - PC12 - KA300 - KA
PostPosted: 15 Dec 2017, 11:47 
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Joined: 12/03/14
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Company: Ciholas, Inc
Location: KEHR
Aircraft: C560V
Username Protected wrote:
Did you really think I would give you such a specific example if I couldn't prove it?

One example does not a reliable trend make.

My point was that if a customer counts on getting more money for their plane after using it for a while, then they may be in for rude awakening, your magical negotiating skills not withstanding.

But your specific scenario makes some sense precisely because it was over a hots. That removed a large uncertainty. Had they flown 400 hours right up to a hots and not done the hots, the sale price would have been less than they paid. Basically, your customer was lucky because they gambled on a low cost hots and won. I would not take this example to mean any airplane you help someone buy will appreciate.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: C421 - C441 - Commander 1000- Merlin - PC12 - KA300 - KA
PostPosted: 16 Dec 2017, 08:27 
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Joined: 05/23/13
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Company: Jet Acquisitions
Location: Franklin, TN 615-739-9091 chip@jetacq.com
Mike,

I certainly don’t promise anyone airplanes are an appreciating asset. Though we could be headed back into one of those situations.

The trick is to buy the aircraft right, have an exit strategy, and do the proper due diligence during prebuy. My client didn’t gamble on the cost of the HOTS, we estimated them at time of purchase and nailed it.

Stocking aircraft dealers buy airplanes for resale every day, they have to have a huge margin to cover the holding cost. It is quite common to buy an aircraft well under market, How much... depends on the model of aircraft. For instance, you won’t buy a PC12 for much below retail, but the 350 market offers a lot of opportunities today. Two years ago you could make a very good buy on a King Air B200... say $200k behind the market... today that number is probably $50k assuming a 90’s vintage airplane that is desirable.

Another factor is commissions, there’s usually at least one broker involved in a transaction, sometimes three ir more. We often purchase airplanes where there’s only a listing agent and buyer’s agent, and sometimes it’s only us. In most aircraft transactions the buyer doesn’t know who is getting paid... or how much. Plus, the people getting paid aren’t there to look out for the buyer.

You’re always adversarial to me, hopefully one day you will see that I’m actually a white hat, here to help guys like you.

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 Post subject: Re: C421 - C441 - Commander 1000- Merlin - PC12 - KA300 - KA
PostPosted: 16 Dec 2017, 15:04 
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Username Protected wrote:
Had they flown 400 hours right up to a hots and not done the hots, the sale price would have been less than they paid.

Mike C.


Not at all, they could have sold it the day after they bought it for a healthy profit or at anytime after that and came out just fine.

Every buy we make is a good buy (or we won't do it) and many are great buys... there's usually a "why" when we make a great buy. The end of the year is an obvious one, weak cosmetics my personal favorite. Airplane belongs to a dealer and he's been sitting on it for six months and needs it off his floorplan...

Trade-ins. Repos. Off market / no listing agent (saves $50k - $150k in commissions)

With Josh Lubbers we purchased a nice King Air 300 with G1000 that was in desperate need of an interior and maintenance. We did the maintenance at Stevens and the seller paid for it as part of the prepurchase. Josh put a new interior in it several months later and subsequently turned down what would have been a nice profit.

Think that's isolated? Ask him about the C90B that we purchased for him before the 300...

Here's what you are missing... airplanes get flipped every day by aircraft brokers... they make $50k, $100k, $150k... $250k... $350k... and that's on sub $3M dollar airplanes...

Why would you think it would be impossible for us to buy the same airplane for our client, get paid a flat fee and pass the rest of the savings on to them?

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 Post subject: Re: C421 - C441 - Commander 1000- Merlin - PC12 - KA300 - KA
PostPosted: 16 Dec 2017, 18:03 
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Rey nice write up Dan. :thumbup: Please ignore usual pissing matches.

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 Post subject: Re: C421 - C441 - Commander 1000- Merlin - PC12 - KA300 - KA
PostPosted: 17 Dec 2017, 00:55 
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Joined: 12/03/14
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Company: Ciholas, Inc
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Aircraft: C560V
Username Protected wrote:
Not at all, they could have sold it the day after they bought it for a healthy profit

So they took advantage of someone else who didn't get what it was worth.

In other words, the story is more about buying it on the cheap than selling it on the high.

Quote:
Here's what you are missing... airplanes get flipped every day by aircraft brokers... they make $50k, $100k, $150k... $250k... $350k... and that's on sub $3M dollar airplanes...

Maybe, but today I saw a plane that will, most likely, cost the broker $250K. Mistakes can be expensive in the aircraft flipping business.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: C421 - C441 - Commander 1000- Merlin - PC12 - KA300 - KA
PostPosted: 17 Dec 2017, 16:21 
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Joined: 01/04/12
Posts: 279
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Aircraft: C560, Extra NG, FX3
Congrats Dan,
Hope you will enjoy the plane.

BTW, I think the twin TP market is due for an upgraded TP that could outperform all our legacy planes. It is ridiculous that our planes are all based on 70’s or earlier technology/designs! Newer is (almost) always nicer. I am putting a new paint job and new interior in the 441 right now - decided to do it after reading about the KA250 in the magazines, even though I like newer, I don’t want to “upgrade” and have all performance aspects be less, including less than 200 lbs full fuel usable load! Hence I will most likely keep the 441 indefinitely, unless going to a CJ-4, ( which seems total overkill). Making the old 441 as new as possible,including swapping the G600 for TXi displays.

Also based on recommendation from Martti, took my 441 to Red’s in Florida and got it enrolled in the “low maintenance” program this fall. Inspections go from say every 3years today every 1000 or 2000 hours. Seems like a great program, but it is interesting why the other shops “have not heard about it”, it is a Cessna program!


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 Post subject: Re: C421 - C441 - Commander 1000- Merlin - PC12 - KA300 - KA
PostPosted: 17 Dec 2017, 16:47 
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Joined: 01/16/11
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Location: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Aircraft: PC12NG, G3Tat
Dan, sorry to hear that you have left the PC12 fold, but that is one fine looking airplane. I think my kids have swum a meet against yours...........we're the Pompano Piranhas, slightly faster than your dolphins!!!!

Congrats though, you cannot go wrong with any of the airplanes that you have flown..........

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 Post subject: Re: C421 - C441 - Commander 1000- Merlin - PC12 - KA300 - KA
PostPosted: 18 Dec 2017, 17:55 
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Joined: 06/28/11
Posts: 1021
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Company: FractionalLaw.com
Location: Based ABE, Allentown, PA
Aircraft: King Air 350
Max,

If someone plans to own one of these legacy birds for a long interval, making improvements to P&I and avionics makes a lot of sense compared to the capital cost and residual value loss on a new bird.

Thanks again for taking my dad and me on a junket in your 441.

Best,

Dan


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 Post subject: Re: C421 - C441 - Commander 1000- Merlin - PC12 - KA300 - KA
PostPosted: 18 Dec 2017, 18:00 
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Joined: 06/28/11
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Company: FractionalLaw.com
Location: Based ABE, Allentown, PA
Aircraft: King Air 350
Michael,

Our Dolphins have been undefeated for years. However, I would be afraid to pit my kids against yours in any water-related activity.

If you and JC had engaged in Pilatus trash talk, it might have brought values down enough that mere mortals could buy a Pilatus instead of being forced into buying an ancient King Air.

Best,

Dan


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 Post subject: Re: C421 - C441 - Commander 1000- Merlin - PC12 - KA300 - KA
PostPosted: 23 Dec 2017, 13:16 
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Joined: 06/28/11
Posts: 1021
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Company: FractionalLaw.com
Location: Based ABE, Allentown, PA
Aircraft: King Air 350
Flew the family from Allentown ABE to Key West EYW on Thursday. Only 10-15 knots average headwind, but I was still nervous about fuel reserves on this flight of 1,075 nm. Rather than my usual cruise technique of using the book power settings for Normal Cruise, I slowed back to 270 KTAS at FL280. Normal cruise is 290-295 KTAS. 270 KTAS worked out to 55% torque and 550#/hr. Landed in EYW after 4.2 hours on the hobbs with 1,050# remaining. Weather was gorgeous, and 800# reserve would have been OK, but I was happy to have more.

Moral of the story: had to slow down to PC-12 speeds (or slower), but comfortably made it nonstop.

My copilot is the one wearing suglasses. She works hard on the checklists until we get to cruise, then goes back to read and rest, and returns to the cockpit for the descent and landing.


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 Post subject: Re: C421 - C441 - Commander 1000- Merlin - PC12 - KA300 - KA
PostPosted: 23 Dec 2017, 17:14 
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Joined: 06/28/11
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Company: FractionalLaw.com
Location: Based ABE, Allentown, PA
Aircraft: King Air 350
I never took the Atlantic Routes when I had the 421. I wasn't comfortable at FL250 for extended periods and I preferred to not be so far from shore. I wasn't so much worried about an engine failure as I was an exhaust or electrical problem. I didn't want to be 100 miles from land - more than an hour at single-engine speed with a headwind.

I was looking forward to AR shortcuts with the King Air, but getting a raft that complies with FAR 91.509 is more complicated and expensive than I had expected. For my two Florida trips per year, it doesn't seem worth the bother.

Rental is a hassle - especially with the need to send hazmat on the return shipping.

Any recommendations??


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 Post subject: Re: C421 - C441 - Commander 1000- Merlin - PC12 - KA300 - KA
PostPosted: 23 Dec 2017, 17:23 
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Aircraft: C182P, Merlin IIIC
http://www.survivalproductsinc.com

That is what most of the guys I know going long over water in turbines use.


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 Post subject: Re: C421 - C441 - Commander 1000- Merlin - PC12 - KA300 - KA
PostPosted: 23 Dec 2017, 18:45 
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Joined: 12/15/10
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Location: Burlington VT KBTV
Aircraft: C441 N441WD
We have a TSO’d Winslow 8 man raft. 43lbs and it wasn’t cheap but I don’t skimp on survival equipment and I fly the AR’s regularly.
Good to have a raft, but it’s a good idea to know how to use it as well. Brief your passengers on the deployment as well:
http://winslowliferaft.com/deployment-tutorial/


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