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 Post subject: Re: Flying the TBM 850
PostPosted: 20 Sep 2020, 09:13 
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Joined: 08/10/14
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Username Protected wrote:
I thought PT6-66D TBO was always 3500, what upgrade was needed to get yours to 3500? When are they not 3500?


Nope. Me too. Live and learn! My serial number was 401 and I can't remember where but it was something after that before they went to 3500. The upgrades are simple.

Just looked this up - 850s with SN 346-409 have a 3000 hr TBO which can be increased to 3500 with SB14398, typically done during HSI.

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 Post subject: Re: Flying the TBM 850
PostPosted: 20 Sep 2020, 09:16 
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Joined: 03/01/14
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Location: 0TX0 Granbury TX
Aircraft: T-210M Aeronca 7AC
I’ve been fortunate to fly the 700 and 850 a little bit and stand amazed at what fine airplanes these are. This is a first for me burning Jet A in a single.


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 Post subject: Re: Flying the TBM 850
PostPosted: 20 Sep 2020, 18:36 
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Company: Finch Industries,Inc.
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Username Protected wrote:
I still go back to my last question in regards to what appears to be a stark difference in overall costs between the Meridian and TBM. From an equipment, systems and size standpoint, they are similar birds but appear to have drastically different opex and mx costs. I can't wrap my brian around it.


The Meridian is a very simple airframe. Avionics are avionics and a Pratt is a Pratt for the most part. You can have some expensive maintenance events in a Meridian, but it is on average going to be a lot less than a TBM. For instance gear refurbishing. There are time or calendar limits on the TBM, and my understanding is that the gear is sent back to Socata, for a big chunk of money. I had heard 70K? The gear on the Meridian has no hour or cycle limits, and is fix on demand. I had my gear refurbished once, had a bad seal and shim on the right MG, after about 500 cycles, and the refurb was done at the local shop and was only $600. That included new shims and seals. May have been a little less because the plane was jacked to put on new brakes $300 and a new tire ?$1000 a side. There are expensive parts hiding in the airframe, but the reliability of those parts seem to be pretty good. Still have to go in eyes open. Maintenance on a piston Mirage and a turbine Meridian on average are in the same ballpark.

I had a 2007 TBM 850 that reached the 10 year gear rebuild and I decided to send the actuators to France for rebuild during the annual and the cost was $17,000 this was in 2017,If I had purchased new it was $47,000 exchange.The only thing that was a negative with sending them to France was an extra 4 weeks waiting for the actuators to be returned.

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 Post subject: Re: Flying the TBM 850
PostPosted: 20 Sep 2020, 19:17 
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Joined: 05/31/13
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Company: Docking Drawer
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Quote:
cost was $17,000

That's the cost for just the actuators? 2 main + nose? 3 hydraulic actuator rebuilds = $17,000?

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 Post subject: Re: Flying the TBM 850
PostPosted: 20 Sep 2020, 19:39 
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Location: Raleigh, NC
Aircraft: Malibu,Husky,TBM7C2
Now actuator rebuilds are 9AMU each and 6 weeks. New they are 14 but there is a special for 11.4 going on right now (seriously). Replaced two last year and will replace the other this year.

These are the most expensive repairs I have made in 4 years of 700C2 ownership. In my experience I agree overall ownership cost is about 100AMU for 200 hours a year considering fuel, insurance, hangar, subscriptions, repairs/inspections, etc. Excluding reserve for engine replacement.


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 Post subject: Re: Flying the TBM 850
PostPosted: 20 Sep 2020, 19:44 
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Joined: 12/19/11
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Aircraft: 2004 SR22 G2
The gear mx and overhaul I guess is one clear example of the differences between the TBM and Meridian. $17K for OH and 4+ weeks downtime or ~$50K for exchange in the TBM vs. a relatively minor inspect and repair process for the Meridian. It doesn't make any sense to me. The airframes aren't that vastly different.

I wonder what the source of these differences are? Difference in mindset of the development team or certification team? Lack of testing in certification requiring more frequent inspections? Use of materials that required more frequent inspections? Is it that the PA46 series was well-established and the certification basis of the Meridian was based on processes developed for the piston PA46 and deemed acceptable for the Meridian?

The TBM with all its inspection and hourly requirements seems to have been developed or certified with a jet mindset wheras the Meridian seems to follow the thinking of piston development and certification.

I love the TBM and its performance and range are very attractive and certainly superior to the Meridian but all these inspections and mx costs seem to be excessive given its category. I would venture a guess that the overall mx costs of a TBM is at least 2X the mx cost of a Meridian and it doesn't seem to be justified given their similar size, mission and performance.

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 Post subject: Re: Flying the TBM 850
PostPosted: 20 Sep 2020, 19:46 
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Username Protected wrote:
In my experience I agree overall ownership cost is about 100AMU for 200 hours a year considering fuel, insurance, hangar, subscriptions, repairs/inspections, etc. Excluding reserve for engine replacement.



Tony's 100AMU figure was mx and annuals only. Fuel, insurance, hangar, subscriptions were above and beyond that.

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2004 SR22 G2


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 Post subject: Re: Flying the TBM 850
PostPosted: 20 Sep 2020, 19:50 
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Username Protected wrote:
...doesn't seem to be justified given their similar size, mission and performance.


they are not the same size, nor do they have the same mission profile or performance.

TBM is physically larger, inside and out. It's 5 feet longer, and 3 feet taller. the cabin is 1' longer (although .5" narrower and 1" flatter).

Our UL is 2,734 lbs (1,000lbs more than the M600). The max GW is 1,430 lbs more than the M600.

It's also 40kts faster. and built by a defense contractor, so yes, the mindset from the beginning was likely different.

But I agree the gear OH is onerous at best, and some owners defer it.

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Last edited on 20 Sep 2020, 19:58, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Flying the TBM 850
PostPosted: 20 Sep 2020, 19:55 
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Username Protected wrote:
they are not the same size, nor do they have the same mission profile or performance.

TBM is physically larger, inside and out. our UL is 2,734 lbs. It's also 40kts faster. and built by a defense contractor, so yes, the mindset from the beginning was likely different.

But I agree the gear OH is onerous at best, and some owners defer it.


Yes I know the TBM is faster and further and a slightly larger airframe but these differences don't justify developement of an airframe with such vastly difference mx requirements with jet-type interval inspections vs. an annual inspection on the Meridian.

I love the TBM. I just wish the added performance didn't come with all these additional mx requirements and cost.

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Don Coburn
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 Post subject: Re: Flying the TBM 850
PostPosted: 20 Sep 2020, 19:59 
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still on the fence about which items to replace on schedule, vs a more reasonable "on condition" approach.

i know it comes back around upon sale, but i can't be grounded 4 wks to save 30k on gear. man.

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 Post subject: Re: Flying the TBM 850
PostPosted: 20 Sep 2020, 20:46 
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Username Protected wrote:
I love the TBM. I just wish the added performance didn't come with all these additional mx requirements and cost.


Like a lot of things, "love" comes with a price.

I just had my gear OH done, I think it came at a price of ~100 hours of shop time and some miscellaneous seals and hardware. I opted for new gear actuators at the same time that have a 120 month OH vs. 84 month OH. My service center had them in stock so no extra down time. ($34 AMU if I recall).

I am through most timed items now on my plane for 7-10 years. Other than the OH's that are expensive - hyd power pack, starter generator, gear, actuators, gear, HSI - the plane has been inexpensive to maintain compared to prior aircraft I have owned.

The thing is pay now or pay the costs later when things fail or I sell the plane.

I take my plane to a service center once a year, that is the only time it is in MX. It is expensive but wow, it is a great airplane.


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 Post subject: Re: Flying the TBM 850
PostPosted: 20 Sep 2020, 21:58 
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Joined: 08/24/13
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Company: Aviation Tools / CCX
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Username Protected wrote:
Now actuator rebuilds are 9AMU each and 6 weeks. New they are 14 but there is a special for 11.4 going on right now (seriously). Replaced two last year and will replace the other this year.

These are the most expensive repairs I have made in 4 years of 700C2 ownership. In my experience I agree overall ownership cost is about 100AMU for 200 hours a year considering fuel, insurance, hangar, subscriptions, repairs/inspections, etc. Excluding reserve for engine replacement.


The Daher published actuator o/h is $8462. Isn't there a 3rd party shop in CA that Avex uses? My understanding is they were a little cheaper, but maybe not.


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 Post subject: Re: Flying the TBM 850
PostPosted: 21 Sep 2020, 00:01 
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I just did both actuators on my 425. $2500 each from Aircraft Accessories International in Florida. 2 day turnaround + shipping. If you want an OHE it's an extra $200. That's the difference between the factory controlling the parts and the free market competing for the work. On the parts that Textron still controls it looks more like Daher.

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 Post subject: Re: Flying the TBM 850
PostPosted: 21 Sep 2020, 01:58 
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Joined: 06/02/15
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Location: Fresno, CA (KFAT)
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Username Protected wrote:
...doesn't seem to be justified given their similar size, mission and performance.


they are not the same size, nor do they have the same mission profile or performance.

TBM is physically larger, inside and out. It's 5 feet longer, and 3 feet taller. the cabin is 1' longer (although .5" narrower and 1" flatter).

Our UL is 2,734 lbs (1,000lbs more than the M600). The max GW is 1,430 lbs more than the M600.

It's also 40kts faster. and built by a defense contractor, so yes, the mindset from the beginning was likely different.

But I agree the gear OH is onerous at best, and some owners defer it.


GTOW of 7430# vs 6000#, means everything beefier especially gear components.
Higher stall speed in landing configuration = higher Vref =higher touchdown speeds means beefier structure, bigger brakes, seats rated at 20g design, etc.
Flat rated 850 hp to FL = beefier engine mount, firewall, etc.
Pressurization to 6.2psi versus 5.5 (I think) means stronger/heavier construction.

Factory overseas, means shipping costs, inventory holding costs for parts.
Lots of Honeywell stuff in the pre-G1000 versions with horrible support and crazy prices.
Many components are unicorns and maintenance authorization does not exist to OH.

Possible cost of initial and ongoing EASA certification.

Finally sheer numbers of airframes built, with few truly qualified shops.
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 Post subject: Re: Flying the TBM 850
PostPosted: 21 Sep 2020, 08:17 
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Username Protected wrote:

The Daher published actuator o/h is $8462. Isn't there a 3rd party shop in CA that Avex uses? My understanding is they were a little cheaper, but maybe not.


The Daher overhauled units were not available when I needed them. I think that is still the case. I had one main OHed by that company in CA. It cost roughly 9K and took 2 months and came back with different fittings that had to be modified to use on my plane. I purchased the second new when it appeared my other main was going to be a problem.


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