BeechTalk - BT

Username Protected · **Posted:** 03 Jan 2018, 12:25

Username Protected wrote:

Ok, so if I put all this into my guhzinta machine properly I come up with the following.

Baron 58
185 ish knots on 25 ish GPH lean of peak

Navajo C
190 ish knots on 30 ish GPH. Not sure if this is LOP or not.

My longest run would be Chicago Tucson but that’s a stop no matter what. The family trip would be Chicago to Orlando to hit up Disney for a few days.

The Navajo is 10 minuets faster to Orlando but uses 36 gallons more gas if I made the trip today.

Is 10 minuets worth $180 bucks in fuel?

It isn't the speed IMHO, it is the room. Bigger plane that you can have pax eaisly go front to back, and have a potty (albeit a honey pot).

Username Protected · **Posted:** 04 Jan 2018, 09:42

Username Protected wrote:

Eggzachery. It's not about the minor speed differences that could easily be mitigated by ATC, WX or whatever... it's about the room and capabilities. The Navajo is also actually a better short field performer than a Baron. The Baron certainly has its' place and is a fantastic airplane, but IMHO, all these folks that get mired up in aircraft selection over a couple of gallons of fuel or a few knots of speed are not looking at it with seasoning. In this league, if you're so concerned over such trivial dribble, you need to be looking at either jet equipment or Cessna 182's. Pick something that you LIKE in the "range" of aircraft you're seeking. When the bills come due, it will be much easier to stroke the check, or break your back in the shop fixing them yourself. If your two choices are parked on the ramp and your wife says... 'I like that one much better' -- pointing to the Navajo... well, you may have yourself an answer that can't be argued about later. Any cost differences could easily mitigate themselves over time. :shrug:

~ ME

This is pretty much the smack in the head I needed. Thank you.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 04 Jan 2018, 12:26

You're more than welcome, John. No charge. We're all seeking the perfect steed. I've had solid ownership, operation and flight experience with many of these types you're considering... and can help you spend your money as good as your wife can!

~ Mark

Username Protected · **Posted:** 05 Jan 2018, 11:40

Anybody know about what the cost of insurance on a Navajo C is?

Username Protected · **Posted:** 05 Jan 2018, 13:39

It depends on your total experience and recency thereof, time in type, training, number of seats insured, stated hull value, broker discounts, etc... probably somewhere between $2200-3200/yr. ~ Mark :peace:

Username Protected · **Posted:** 05 Jan 2018, 14:58

Username Protected wrote:

It depends on your total experience and recency thereof, time in type, training, number of seats insured, stated hull value, broker discounts, etc... probably somewhere between $2200-3200/yr. ~ Mark :peace:

Low MEL time? YGBSM....

Username Protected · **Posted:** 05 Jan 2018, 16:23

Username Protected wrote:

It depends on your total experience and recency thereof, time in type, training, number of seats insured, stated hull value, broker discounts, etc... probably somewhere between $2200-3200/yr. ~ Mark :peace:

Low MEL time? YGBSM....

Username Protected · **Posted:** 05 Jan 2018, 17:06

Username Protected wrote:

Low MEL time? YGBSM....

For you it could be $2200-$10200. I don't know what either of your experience levels are, or what year/model of ship is being sought. If you're shopping on the level of Piper Navajos, perhaps I'm incorrectly assuming you have the muscle to back up the threat. :scratch:

Obviously, if you want the last years of production, or a Panther conversion, the insurance rate is going to escalate. :shrug:

For earlier models, with aviators that meet the aforementioned qualifications, the prior rates listed should stand up. That lowest rate is what I pay, for a known ice, 1970, PA-31-310, with (7) seats.
~~ ME

Username Protected · **Posted:** 06 Jan 2018, 10:07

Username Protected wrote:

I don't see any "aforementioned qualifications", but someone just getting into this with minimal multi time is going to be much closer to the high end of your scale than what you are paying (and I'm assuming you have several thousand hours).

(1) Aforementioned Qualifications:

"It depends on your total experience and recency thereof, time in type, training, number of seats insured, stated hull value, broker discounts, etc..."

(2) Yes, I have experience.

I wasn't trying to be smart (my wife can expunge any misconceptions I have about that :roll:

), but was just attempting to answer John's question. I didn't read the whole four page thread over, Tom. Shame on me! If John or yourself listed low multi-engine time in your qualifications earlier in the post, I apologize for failing to see that. Perhaps I incorrectly assume that most folks that appear to be seriously contemplating purchasing and operating airplanes at a given level here on Beechtalk, have the experience and funds to safely and semi-affordably carry that out. If we are now assuming low multi-engine experience, may I gingerly suggest getting at least 500 hours in a Travel Air or something, before buying and hauling (7) seats of your family around in weather in a Piper Navajo.

I am sorry for any confusion this may have caused. :peace:

Still... notwithstanding the qualifications listed under bullet point #1, Navajo insurance should be reasonable stacked up against the rest of the attributes and operating expenses of an airframe in this category. It has a good safety record with no untoward characteristics.

~ Mark

Username Protected · **Posted:** 06 Jan 2018, 11:53

Username Protected wrote:

(1) Aforementioned Qualifications:

"It depends on your total experience and recency thereof, time in type, training, number of seats insured, stated hull value, broker discounts, etc..."

(2) Yes, I have experience.

I wasn't trying to be smart (my wife can expunge any misconceptions I have about that :roll:

), but was just attempting to answer John's question. I didn't read the whole four page thread over, Tom. Shame on me! If John or yourself listed low multi-engine time in your qualifications earlier in the post, I apologize for failing to see that. Perhaps I incorrectly assume that most folks that appear to be seriously contemplating purchasing and operating airplanes at a given level here on Beechtalk, have the experience and funds to safely and semi-affordably carry that out. If we are now assuming low multi-engine experience, may I gingerly suggest getting at least 500 hours in a Travel Air or something, before buying and hauling (7) seats of your family around in weather in a Piper Navajo.

I am sorry for any confusion this may have caused. :peace:

Still... notwithstanding the qualifications listed under bullet point #1, Navajo insurance should be reasonable stacked up against the rest of the attributes and operating expenses of an airframe in this category. It has a good safety record with no untoward characteristics.

~ Mark

Hey Mark, no worries and appreciate your input! Didn't mean to co-opt John's thread, but I've seen a lot of posters claim that twins are not expensive to insure, but I think those guys have very significant experience.

I've found personally that being a fresh/low time multi pilot, the premium costs and dual requirements in-type to be quite onerous, even for relatively modest hull coverage- if you get a quote at all.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 06 Jan 2018, 16:45

When I bought my first twin I had 5 hrs of multi time. Insurance first year was 8k, second year was 3.5 and then it settled between 2.5-3k. Consider it the first year twin tax.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 06 Jan 2018, 17:10

I just bought JJ’s Navajo 310-C. I have 100 hours multi, 500 total time. My insurance is $5200 and required to have 10 hours dual and an IPC. I expect it to be in the 4K range next year.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 06 Jan 2018, 18:26

Username Protected wrote:

I just bought JJ’s Navajo 310-C. I have 100 hours multi, 500 total time. My insurance is $5200 and required to have 10 hours dual and an IPC. I expect it to be in the 4K range next year.

A Panther FTR.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 06 Jan 2018, 22:29

Username Protected wrote:

When I bought my first twin I had 5 hrs of multi time. Insurance first year was 8k, second year was 3.5 and then it settled between 2.5-3k. Consider it the first year twin tax.

How many hours did you fly it the first year? How many of those were with a right-seater?

Username Protected · **Posted:** 07 Jan 2018, 14:36

Username Protected wrote:

I just bought JJ’s Navajo 310-C. I have 100 hours multi, 500 total time. My insurance is $5200 and required to have 10 hours dual and an IPC. I expect it to be in the 4K range next year.

A Panther FTR.

The Piper Navajo