banner
banner

28 Mar 2024, 07:27 [ UTC - 5; DST ]


Concorde Battery (banner)



Reply to topic  [ 1769 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 80, 81, 82, 83, 84, 85, 86 ... 118  Next
Username Protected Message
 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 16 Jun 2021, 20:17 
Offline


 WWW  Profile




Joined: 12/03/14
Posts: 19252
Post Likes: +23612
Company: Ciholas, Inc
Location: KEHR
Aircraft: C560V
Username Protected wrote:
I have been talking to the folks at Florida Jet Center for my initial.

My insurance required sim initial, not in airplane. I did it at FSI Atlanta. Check your insurance underwriter for this as they are going towards requiring sim especially for owner flown types.

Mike C.

_________________
Email mikec (at) ciholas.com


Top

 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 16 Jun 2021, 20:45 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 11/19/15
Posts: 1400
Post Likes: +1203
Company: Centurion LV and Eleusis
Location: Draper UT KPVU-KVNY
Aircraft: N45AF 501sp Eagle II
I am torn on the value of Sim training vs in plane. Its good for getting into really bad situations safely but you just do not get comfortable in your plane and have to re learn from the sim to the aircraft.

I have a 421 and you cant really train is those so have done the last two trainings in the Sim. I was hoping I could do my type rating in my new plane. I want as many hours as I can get in that seat with those buttons.

I think the best would be a combo. Some sim but some in your aircraft.

I also think they make the sim training requirement way too long. I feel each time its a wasted day or so. Once you get dialed in there is really not much to do but some person decided you needed 5 days of the same stuff over and over. I guess its an issue with any training, you have to go thru the same process that the weakest student will need.

Mike

_________________
InstaGram @Mtpyle company @CenturionLV @eleusisdigitalcanvas race team @strappedracing


Top

 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 16 Jun 2021, 21:10 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 12/25/12
Posts: 3711
Post Likes: +3661
Location: KRHV San Jose, CA
Aircraft: A36, R44, C525
I bought my CJ before I got my type rating which helped immensely because. being able to just sit in the cockpit in my hanger and learn where everything was prior to getting in the Sim. If you don’t the Sim is so overwhelming at first it’s dark you don’t know where anything is and it doesn’t come natural at all from me upgrading from the 421.

In hindsight before I even went to get my type rating I should’ve had my mentor Pilot sit with me in the plane in the hanger and start to learn flows, they are so critical in this airplane of certain things you do at certain times in the flight learning those is one of the biggest hurdles of the airplane. The plane itself is very easy to fly.

_________________
Rocky Hill

Altitude is Everything.


Top

 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 16 Jun 2021, 21:10 
Offline


 WWW  Profile




Joined: 12/03/14
Posts: 19252
Post Likes: +23612
Company: Ciholas, Inc
Location: KEHR
Aircraft: C560V
Username Protected wrote:
I think the best would be a combo. Some sim but some in your aircraft.

Insurance does this with sim type rating, mentoring in aircraft.

Quote:
I also think they make the sim training requirement way too long.

I agree.

I felt I could have done the CE-500 type course in almost half the days allotted. They allocate time based on the lowest performing student, apparently.

Mike C.

_________________
Email mikec (at) ciholas.com


Top

 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 16 Jun 2021, 21:50 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 12/16/07
Posts: 17507
Post Likes: +20996
Company: Real Estate development
Location: Addison -North Dallas(ADS), Texas
Aircraft: In between
I got my initial in the plane. I would have had to have 25 hours before being able to fly as PIC anyway. I just did that in the plane. I agree, the sim courses were lengthy, scheduled at odd hours and I wouldn’t have had time in the plane. Went to sim recurrent later. My insurer approved it. Most initial places want to get you in and done quickly. I let them know that wasn’t my goal.

_________________
Dave Siciliano, ATP


Top

 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 16 Jun 2021, 22:37 
Offline


 Profile




Joined: 09/12/20
Posts: 9
Post Likes: +1
Aircraft: CE-501
Username Protected wrote:
I got my initial in the plane. I would have had to have 25 hours before being able to fly as PIC anyway. I just did that in the plane. I agree, the sim courses were lengthy, scheduled at odd hours and I wouldn’t have had time in the plane. Went to sim recurrent later. My insurer approved it. Most initial places want to get you in and done quickly. I let them know that wasn’t my goal.


The key is to ensure that you will not get an "SIC Required" restriction. Some DPEs are doing this across the board on initial type rating check rides even for those that take the ride single pilot. I suppose it's their way of limiting liability of someone jumping in a jet, single pilot after an accelerated in-the-plane initial. While I understand the logic, it's often not disclosed by the school or the DPE in advance as an outcome of the check ride...largely because it should not be an outcome per 8900.2.

Moral of the story: Ask and do your diligence in advance of starting your training or taking an in-the-plane check ride.


Top

 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 17 Jun 2021, 08:03 
Offline


 Profile




Joined: 09/26/14
Posts: 54
Post Likes: +50
Aircraft: B767
Although the initial program in the sim is long and exhausting, I truly think it would be in your best interest. The ground school/systems knowledge will provide you with the fundamentals that you need to know if operating a high altitude, high speed jet aircraft (especially if operating single pilot). Bleed air, oxygen, hypoxia, air cycle machines, anti/de-icing, weather, etc, just to name a few.

After systems, the sim portion of the program affords you repetition. Since you're a brand new MEL pilot, repetition is exactly what you need and it's much easier (and cheaper) to do that in a simulator vs the airplane. Flight handling/characteristics, profiles, approaches, V1 cuts, single engine approaches, crew concepts, checklist management, etc are going to have you drinking from a fire hose and having the ability to stop the sim, explain, reset, reposition and repeat are very helpful in the learning process.

I was in a similar situation as yourself (new MEL rating and relatively low time with about 500 hours in a Baron) many years ago and went to FSI in San Antonio for my initial. I can't speak highly enough of how valuable that training was in my career (9 type ratings later).

I'm not saying that doing the program in your own airplane or using another syllabus/training facility is a bad idea, but these initial programs (FSI, SimulFlite, etc) are designed for pilots just like you.


Top

 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 17 Jun 2021, 10:13 
Offline


 Profile




Joined: 11/06/20
Posts: 1276
Post Likes: +1270
Location: Tulsa, OK - KRVS
Aircraft: C501SP
Username Protected wrote:
I have been talking to the folks at Florida Jet Center for my initial.

My insurance required sim initial, not in airplane. I did it at FSI Atlanta. Check your insurance underwriter for this as they are going towards requiring sim especially for owner flown types.

Mike C.

Thanks everyone for their feedback. I have been talking to the insurance folks and have what we believe to be a workable (though expensive) plan.

I feel strongly about learning to fly the actual airplane vs a sim. I agree that sims are outstanding for learning systems and emergency procedures, but IMO they don't teach you how to fly the plane. Plus I doubt the sim will have the same instruments as my (future) plane so there is even less utility there for learning how to fly. Also, I can do in-airplane at my home airport vs having to travel.

So my current thinking is to do my initial in the plane and then fly with my mentor for a while. My mentor pilot will be the primary on the insurance with me listed as an additional pilot (only flying w/ the mentor). 6 months or so in, I will go and do sim recurrent. By that point I will be comfortable w/ flying the plane, and I can practice those emergencies that can't be done safely in the plane.

My insurance person also recommended that I do upset recovery training at Jet Warbird training center in Santa Fe as well as a radar training course. The idea is to build a portfolio and to show the underwriter that you are taking this seriously, are investing in yourself, and that you want to become proficient.

Top

 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 17 Jun 2021, 10:49 
Offline


User avatar
 WWW  Profile




Joined: 03/09/11
Posts: 1724
Post Likes: +784
Company: Wings Insurance
Location: Eden Prairie, MN / Scottsdale, AZ
Aircraft: 2016 Cirrus SR22 G5
Username Protected wrote:
Thanks everyone for their feedback. I have been talking to the insurance folks and have what we believe to be a workable (though expensive) plan.

I feel strongly about learning to fly the actual airplane vs a sim. I agree that sims are outstanding for learning systems and emergency procedures, but IMO they don't teach you how to fly the plane. Plus I doubt the sim will have the same instruments as my (future) plane so there is even less utility there for learning how to fly. Also, I can do in-airplane at my home airport vs having to travel.

So my current thinking is to do my initial in the plane and then fly with my mentor for a while. My mentor pilot will be the primary on the insurance with me listed as an additional pilot (only flying w/ the mentor). 6 months or so in, I will go and do sim recurrent. By that point I will be comfortable w/ flying the plane, and I can practice those emergencies that can't be done safely in the plane.

My insurance person also recommended that I do upset recovery training at Jet Warbird training center in Santa Fe as well as a radar training course. The idea is to build a portfolio and to show the underwriter that you are taking this seriously, are investing in yourself, and that you want to become proficient.


Hi Chris-
What you outlined is a great plan (I'm not your broker but I can always endorse good logic I see from a competitor) and one I commend your broker for suggesting. The 'sim' portion the underwriting company usually just needs to be done prior to solo operations - so in most cases insurers are ok with in-aircraft initial followed by mentor period and then sim recurrent - but all prior to solo ops. It is frankly a workaround for other than full initial sim school and one we have deployed in cases where it made sense (you mentioned the panel in your bird not mirror'ing what the simulator outfit would have - great reason to train in airplane right there!). The upset stuff and radar is good 'filler' for your pilot profile and I agree that it will certainly make your risk stand out a bit when it is shopped next year. So bravo on the thought process here and best to you with the new airplane~ th

_________________
Tom Hauge
Wings Insurance
National Sales Director
E-mail: thauge@wingsinsurance.com


Top

 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 17 Jun 2021, 10:55 
Offline



User avatar
 WWW  Profile




Joined: 06/28/09
Posts: 14128
Post Likes: +9073
Location: Walnut Creek, CA (KCCR)
Aircraft: 1962 Twin Bonanza
The only issue with that plan is that the initial type rating oral was pretty comprehensive, at least in my case. Having just gone through the full sim initial, all the info is fresh in the mind and so I had no issues with deep systems discussion with the examiner. In the recurrent the ground portion is abbreviated. There are a lot of systems and a lot of details to know. You can learn it on your own but you will do a lot of studying possibly as much as just doing the initial course.

_________________
http://calipilot.com
atp/cfii


Top

 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 17 Jun 2021, 11:01 
Offline


 Profile




Joined: 09/26/14
Posts: 54
Post Likes: +50
Aircraft: B767
Username Protected wrote:
I feel strongly about learning to fly the actual airplane vs a sim. I agree that sims are outstanding for learning systems and emergency procedures, but IMO they don't teach you how to fly the plane.


Chris, that's exactly what they do, to the point where it becomes 2nd nature.

Best of luck with training and wish you the best.


Top

 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 17 Jun 2021, 11:09 
Offline


 Profile




Joined: 01/17/21
Posts: 87
Post Likes: +42
Aircraft: C550
Took my initial in the plane , 750 Garmin & 700 TXI display, because nobody had the panel in a sim. You talk about drinking from a fire hose somebody broke the dam. Very fortunate to have a local guy with thousands of hours in Citation II's ,he has shown me more than any of the initial or SP waiver training . Sim training without the same equipment would've been very beneficial .


Top

 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 17 Jun 2021, 11:19 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 02/15/21
Posts: 2512
Post Likes: +1240
Username Protected wrote:
Thanks everyone for their feedback. I have been talking to the insurance folks and have what we believe to be a workable (though expensive) plan.

I feel strongly about learning to fly the actual airplane vs a sim. I agree that sims are outstanding for learning systems and emergency procedures, but IMO they don't teach you how to fly the plane. Plus I doubt the sim will have the same instruments as my (future) plane so there is even less utility there for learning how to fly. Also, I can do in-airplane at my home airport vs having to travel.

So my current thinking is to do my initial in the plane and then fly with my mentor for a while. My mentor pilot will be the primary on the insurance with me listed as an additional pilot (only flying w/ the mentor). 6 months or so in, I will go and do sim recurrent. By that point I will be comfortable w/ flying the plane, and I can practice those emergencies that can't be done safely in the plane.

My insurance person also recommended that I do upset recovery training at Jet Warbird training center in Santa Fe as well as a radar training course. The idea is to build a portfolio and to show the underwriter that you are taking this seriously, are investing in yourself, and that you want to become proficient.

Chris, when you say the insurance is expensive, can you give us an idea just how expensive, and for what kind of coverage? What if you plan to fly only part of each year? Can you get insurance priced on a monthly basis?

I thought they did upset training in the regular type rating program. What does the Jet Warbird training include? In what type of plane?

_________________
Aviate, Navigate, Communicate, Administrate, Litigate.


Top

 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 17 Jun 2021, 11:45 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 12/16/07
Posts: 17507
Post Likes: +20996
Company: Real Estate development
Location: Addison -North Dallas(ADS), Texas
Aircraft: In between
Dual Garmins is another reason I trained in the plane. I had those in my previous plane and the one I was going to fly had them. Learning a new avionics system while trying to get typed is something I wanted to avoid.
I was in a different position than you in that I had over 1,000 hours of turbine twin time and access to a plane with an instructor where I could take dual before going to the initial school.

_________________
Dave Siciliano, ATP


Top

 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 17 Jun 2021, 12:38 
Offline


 Profile




Joined: 11/06/20
Posts: 1276
Post Likes: +1270
Location: Tulsa, OK - KRVS
Aircraft: C501SP
Username Protected wrote:
Chris, when you say the insurance is expensive, can you give us an idea just how expensive, and for what kind of coverage? What if you plan to fly only part of each year? Can you get insurance priced on a monthly basis?

I thought they did upset training in the regular type rating program. What does the Jet Warbird training include? In what type of plane?

Hi Ian,

This has not gone before an underwriter, but the broker I am working with recently got somebody through with the above plan. The premium was ~$30k/year for $1MM liability, non-smooth ($100k/person IIRC) and $500k hull. So, insanely steep. I asked about not having the hull covered, but the broker recommended getting a full package quote and then look at breaking it apart. They further recommended not even putting it in front of an underwriter until I had all of the above steps completed so that is all the info I have at this point.

The Jet Warbird training is done in an L-39. Details are here:
https://www.jetwarbird.com/upset.html

I love the shot w/ the styrofoam cups on the top of the canopy. Looks like they try to make it as real as possible - if you do end up inverted there is going to be crap flying all over the place.


Top

Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic  [ 1769 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 80, 81, 82, 83, 84, 85, 86 ... 118  Next




You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  

Terms of Service | Forum FAQ | Contact Us

BeechTalk, LLC is the quintessential Beechcraft Owners & Pilots Group providing a forum for the discussion of technical, practical, and entertaining issues relating to all Beech aircraft. These include the Bonanza (both V-tail and straight-tail models), Baron, Debonair, Duke, Twin Bonanza, King Air, Sierra, Skipper, Sport, Sundowner, Musketeer, Travel Air, Starship, Queen Air, BeechJet, and Premier lines of airplanes, turboprops, and turbojets.

BeechTalk, LLC is not affiliated or endorsed by the Beechcraft Corporation, its subsidiaries, or affiliates. Beechcraft™, King Air™, and Travel Air™ are the registered trademarks of the Beechcraft Corporation.

Copyright© BeechTalk, LLC 2007-2024

.aviationdesigndouble.jpg.
.Marsh.jpg.
.bpt-85x50-2019-07-27.jpg.
.cav-85x50.jpg.
.ABS-85x100.jpg.
.headsetsetc_Small_85x50.jpg.
.Wingman 85x50.png.
.pure-medical-85x150.png.
.sierratrax-85x50.png.
.AAI.jpg.
.wat-85x50.jpg.
.aeroled-85x50-2022-12-06.jpg.
.blackwell-85x50.png.
.blackhawk-85x100-2019-09-25.jpg.
.gallagher_85x50.jpg.
.saint-85x50.jpg.
.concorde.jpg.
.aircraftassociates-85x50.png.
.CiESVer2.jpg.
.kingairnation-85x50.png.
.kingairacademy-85x100.png.
.dbm.jpg.
.chairmanaviation-85x50.jpg.
.Latitude.jpg.
.avionwealth-85x50.png.
.lucysaviation-85x50.png.
.ssv-85x50-2023-12-17.jpg.
.midwest2.jpg.
.tat-85x100.png.
.camguard.jpg.
.boomerang-85x50-2023-12-17.png.
.bullardaviation-85x50-2.jpg.
.MountainAirframe.jpg.
.ei-85x150.jpg.
.Foreflight_85x50_color.png.
.daytona.jpg.
.geebee-85x50.jpg.
.aircraftferry-85x50.jpg.
.airmart-85x150.png.
.Wentworth_85x100.JPG.
.Genesys_85x50.jpg.
.centex-85x50.jpg.
.temple-85x100-2015-02-23.jpg.
.avfab-85x50-2018-12-04.png.
.wilco-85x100.png.
.pdi-85x50.jpg.
.planelogix-85x100-2015-04-15.jpg.
.kadex-85x50.jpg.
.one-mile-up-85x100.png.
.jandsaviation-85x50.jpg.
.stanmusikame-85x50.jpg.
.tempest.jpg.
.traceaviation-85x150.png.
.Rocky-Mountain-Turbine-85x100.jpg.
.SCA.jpg.
.jetacq-85x50.jpg.
.shortnnumbers-85x100.png.