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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 11 Dec 2017, 14:44 
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Michael:

Caution on your comms. The on /off is the center knob on tuner. Depending on grip pressure you can shut off comm during frequency change. Good luck figuring what the hell happened if you are SP in the glag in a class B getting vectors. Total goat rodeo.


Wow, I didn't know that, thanks!


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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 11 Dec 2017, 15:33 
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Sorry, I was not clear. There are a number of markings on the perimeter of the attitude indicator itself that are not found on a smaller piston version. Do you know what those are?


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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 11 Dec 2017, 15:36 
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Username Protected wrote:
Sorry, I was not clear. There are a number of markings on the perimeter of the attitude indicator itself that are not found on a smaller piston version. Do you know what those are?


Angle of attack.


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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 11 Dec 2017, 15:39 
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Username Protected wrote:
Michael:

Caution on your comms. The on /off is the center knob on tuner. Depending on grip pressure you can shut off comm during frequency change. Good luck figuring what the hell happened if you are SP in the glag in a class B getting vectors. Total goat rodeo.


Wow, I didn't know that, thanks!


To be crystal clear.

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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 11 Dec 2017, 22:49 
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Let me clarify, VMC. I'm not launching into massive icing and shooting approaches to minimums for a while (although I feel perfectly safe and comfortable doing so; I just don't feel the need to do this right now). So the second my RVSM is approved, it's launching to the flight levels and going across the country. No boring holes in the sky!

It has a KLN90 and an Avidyne 500 so it's perfectly well equipped to travel and can shoot legal RNAV approaches. The manual for the KLN is hundreds of pages and we have really come a long way since then.

No scary maintenance issues yet...

I replaced the fuel caps with those off a II, pulled a really fancy oxygen mask out of a wreck replacing the worthless turd that was in there, replaced the AC compressor and serviced all the fluids. Fixed some little stuff like the cabinet latches and replaced most of the locks with Medecos. The ailerons were drooped about 1/2 an inch so I had them rigged to the manual. Overall, in the last 10 hours of flying, the only squawk is the left side "engine heat fail" came on a few times early in the training but resolved itself. I think it was just a stuck bleed valve that hadn't been used in a while. The radar altimeter was a little sticky but also resolved itself. Pretty amazing that something can sit for a few years and come back to life with so little issues. Door seal only depressurizes when both motors are shut down (sometimes I like to toss passengers out with the left motor shut down) Supposedly you can run the right motor up to 60% with the door open and blow the water out of the system; I'm sure this hasn't been done in years. Only other minor outstanding issue is there is one small ripple on the right boot that takes a while to suck back down (vacuum). I'm sure these boots haven't been cycled in years and there is a piece of trash in the manifold. It seems to suck down quicker with every cycling so maybe it's just a matter of exercising it.

Easy, simple, fun to work on airplane.

Sorry but I just can’t read this along with reading about a 3 day initial story and not be concerned. Michael - you can’t legally change O2 masks with masks from a wreck or treat this plane as if this was a 152 or your aunt's Chevy Impala. You may have purchased this plane at a part out price, but it appears things are being minimized. I prefer a more humble and conservative approach to jet ownership.


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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 12 Dec 2017, 03:23 
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Sorry but I just can’t read this along with reading about a 3 day initial story and not be concerned. Michael - you can’t legally change O2 masks with masks from a wreck or treat this plane as if this was a 152 or your aunt's Chevy Impala.
For my education, is the concern that no one can replace the O2 mask with one from a wreck (same P/N for old P/N), that this is not an owner PM task, or that the specific part changed was maybe not changed to an equivalent part number or a part number legally superseded in the Textron docs?


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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 12 Dec 2017, 07:47 
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Jim,
Can’t speak for AG or the OP but what I’ve read in this short thread seems to be a rather cavalier attitude toward training and MX of a jet. Ie running with indications showing a problem with an engine, no sim training, very quick in plane training/mentoring and seeming limited knowledge of the systems. This is a high performance aircraft with OLD and complicated systems that has been “sitting”.

My concerns would hold true for anyone moving up in this realm. There’s a Very good reason for the safety experience of jets. Really big part of that is the training involved. #2 is a second set of eyes in many situations. Fly safe...

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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 12 Dec 2017, 07:55 
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Username Protected wrote:
Sorry but I just can’t read this along with reading about a 3 day initial story and not be concerned. Michael - you can’t legally change O2 masks with masks from a wreck or treat this plane as if this was a 152 or your aunt's Chevy Impala.
For my education, is the concern that no one can replace the O2 mask with one from a wreck (same P/N for old P/N), that this is not an owner PM task, or that the specific part changed was maybe not changed to an equivalent part number or a part number legally superseded in the Textron docs?


MT said:

Quote:
pulled a really fancy oxygen mask out of a wreck replacing the worthless turd that was in there


That really fancy O2 mask was likely not the same same PN or approved by Textron for the 501.

It is a common issue that the old Citations do not have quick donning masks that are in newer jets. They may be better but are not paperwork legal without the proper STC.

A good IA will squawk that during an inspection. But since progressive inspections are done rather then an annual it may take a while. At the end airworthiness is the operators responsibility.
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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 12 Dec 2017, 08:45 
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91.213 requires that a turbojet have an approved MEL if it takes off with any inoperative instruments or equipment

Quote:
Sec. 91.213 — Inoperative instruments and equipment.

(a) Except as provided in paragraph (d) of this section, no person may take off an aircraft with inoperative instruments or equipment installed unless the following conditions are met:
(1) An approved Minimum Equipment List exists for that aircraft.

(2) The aircraft has within it a letter of authorization, issued by the FAA Flight Standards district office having jurisdiction over the area in which the operator is located, authorizing operation of the aircraft under the Minimum Equipment List. The letter of authorization may be obtained by written request of the airworthiness certificate holder. The Minimum Equipment List and the letter of authorization constitute a supplemental type certificate for the aircraft.


The 501 Master MEL is here http://fsims.faa.gov/PICDetail.aspx?docId=M%20CE-500%20R9a

Don’t know if MT has an approved MEL to operate with the problems described.

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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 12 Dec 2017, 09:09 
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It’s important to follow the rules but there’s no point in us sniping at each other for minor technical violations.

Even airliners have their share of minor problems that manifest on short final to a field with maintenance.


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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 12 Dec 2017, 09:19 
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Username Protected wrote:
It’s important to follow the rules but there’s no point in us sniping at each other for minor technical violations.

Even airliners have their share of minor problems that manifest on short final to a field with maintenance.


Lots of regs get ignored. That doesn’t mean the lurkers should not learn of the additional responsibility of operating turbine aircraft.

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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 12 Dec 2017, 09:28 
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I am maintaining the airplane. I am getting my relatively small squawk list fixed by an experienced Citation shop. Using used parts is a wise idea on older airplane. The oxygen mask was perfectly legal and was $14,000 from Textron and $2,000 used. It was signed off by an A&P/IA at the Citation shop. It vastly improves the safety of single pilot operations to have a quality emergency mask. There is certainly no cavalier attitude towards maintenance of any airplane I own. Alex, owning a new CJ is a different experience than owning a legacy 501. It makes no sense to buy new parts from Textron for a 40 year old airplane. Used parts probably aren't available for a new CJ. I enjoy working on my airplanes hands on with professional supervision, you probably don't. My worst mechanic ever was a Hawker/Beech service center and some of the best is at a little grass strip. It doesn't make one approach better or worse than the other; just different.

With regards to training. Some people may need to sit through 14 days of PowerPoints. That's fine. Some people learn better by reading, others by listening or lectures; that's fine too. At the end, you have to pass a checkride to ATP standards. If you are capable of passing that checkride, what does it matter how you achieved that goal? You know the material and can fly the airplane. Regardless, any license you earn is simply a license to learn and that's true for ANY new pilot or rating. I have a license to learn the Citation and plan to do so conservatively and safely; it's easy to throw rocks at this statement but as I said, all of know this is true for ANY new rating, license or airplane regardless of the training you received. Anyone that says they are an expert in a new airplane is unconsciously incompetent.

To more or less call someone a hack because they didn't sit through Simcom for 2 weeks or buy new parts from Textron is both naive and a tad condescending.


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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 12 Dec 2017, 09:36 
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And you don’t even know what an RMI is or how to use it...

I’m not being condescending, but NO on every level. I’ll hold my breath and hope this turns out fine.


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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 12 Dec 2017, 10:05 
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Michael, this isn't your first jet or type rating is it?

Robert


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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 12 Dec 2017, 10:28 
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Username Protected wrote:
And you don’t even know what an RMI is or how to use it...

If that is his major deficiency, then I'm not worried.

Don't mistake posting glee for lack of pilot diligence.

Mike C.

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