28 Mar 2024, 17:28 [ UTC - 5; DST ]
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Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp Posted: 19 Jun 2021, 06:26 |
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Joined: 02/15/21 Posts: 2514 Post Likes: +1240
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Username Protected wrote: I got all excited about a 550 until I realized I needed 500 jet ours to get SP. so not possible for me.
So the Eagle II is the best performance jet I can get. It has the range and efficiency of the Citation II but I can fly it.
So for me it’s the best option. And the performance is amazing with FL430 and getting there none stop. Really amazing performance for the price.
So it’s not a matter of if I like program or not. I like the payload and range of the Eagle II. Just so happens I also like the idea of engine insurance and warranty. Anything worth getting cost something.
There is always a cheaper option and a more expensive one. At this price point it is right in my sweet spot.
Mike 501 airframe with FJ44's is a winning combo. Gives CJ2 performance with a slightly smaller cabin but has the ability to operate off turf strips. I would even expect Eagle II prices to approach CJ2 (non +) prices in a few years. With the hot market, wonder how many more 501's will be converted to FJ44's? Does anyone know what percentage of the 501 fleet is now Williams powered? Isn't it about 15%? By the way, whatever happened to the 2,500 lb PW625F? Let's give the FJ44 some competition! Meanwhile for us "budget" guys, JT-15D's it is...
_________________ Aviate, Navigate, Communicate, Administrate, Litigate.
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Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp Posted: 19 Jun 2021, 12:27 |
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Joined: 12/03/14 Posts: 19252 Post Likes: +23613 Company: Ciholas, Inc Location: KEHR
Aircraft: C560V
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Username Protected wrote: I would even expect Eagle II prices to approach CJ2 (non +) prices in a few years. FJ44 converted 501 is less than half the price of a CJ2 typically. If CJ2 prices come down, I expect that ratio to still hold as people would buy CJ2s for 2x what they can buy a 501 with FJ44. Quote: With the hot market, wonder how many more 501's will be converted to FJ44's? None. Can't put $2.5M investment into a $1M outcome. Those with that type of money will get a CJ something. Quote: Does anyone know what percentage of the 501 fleet is now Williams powered? Isn't it about 15%? I know of 15 Eagle IIs (one hull loss leaving 13 left). I know of 17 Stallions. This includes both 500 and 501 types. About 650 were made. So maybe around 5%. There are 3 Stallions listed on controller.com right now, $1.15M, $950K, $850K. IMO, Stallions are the better choice than the Eagle II. The extra fuel of the Eagle II adds a bit to range, but it also slows down the airplane quite a bit, more than you would think. If you look at the total time for a trip, the extra speed and lightness of the Stallion help it mostly compensate for the extra fuel stop in the fairly narrow range when it is required. Also, the workmanship of the fuel humps varies a lot, some are badly installed from what I have seen. Quote: Meanwhile for us "budget" guys, JT-15D's it is... It is for now. If fuel doubles, FJ44 guys win. If Williams jacks prices, JT15D guys win. The JT15D gives the operator choices in HSI/OH and even to fly past OH. You have none of that with Williams, you are totally at their mercy. Williams terms can be very unforgiving, plus they have a 150 hour/year minimum. So it is $50K/year payment regardless, and then about $320/hour for any hour over 150 that year. That buys 100 gallons/hour of fuel. On a typical 5000 hour TBO cycle, you will pay Williams $1.6M in today dollars. Your are basically renting your own plane from Williams. Mike C.
_________________ Email mikec (at) ciholas.com
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Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp Posted: 19 Jun 2021, 12:46 |
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Joined: 12/17/13 Posts: 6322 Post Likes: +5520 Location: Hollywood, Los Angeles, CA
Aircraft: Turbo Commander 680V
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Username Protected wrote: Williams terms can be very unforgiving, plus they have a 150 hour/year minimum. So it is $50K/year payment regardless, and then about $320/hour for any hour over 150 that year. That buys 100 gallons/hour of fuel.
On a typical 5000 hour TBO cycle, you will pay Williams $1.6M in today dollars. Your are basically renting your own plane from Williams.
Mike C.
I don't know about you, but when Adobe changed to their cloud system for all their software and you had to start "renting" it for a monthly cost (that would go up each year, of course), I checked out (even though I liked their software). I just personally can't stand that business model. I want to own whatever it is I've paid for if I can. Seems like Williams is the Adobe of the jet world.
_________________ Problem is the intelligent people are full of doubt, while the stupid ones are full of confidence.
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Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp Posted: 19 Jun 2021, 14:20 |
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Joined: 09/12/20 Posts: 9 Post Likes: +1
Aircraft: CE-501
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Username Protected wrote: Mike C. Pretty sure most CJ2 are on William’s program. So you can’t use that against the Eagle II
I doubt I will pay program for the entire life if the engine. So that point doesn’t hold with a guy like me.
You are also ignoring the value of insurance for anything to go wrong. For a guy like me it’s way easier to pay $325hr than have a $400k bill if I have a really bad day. People including you and I pay an enormous amount of money for the risk management insurance offers.
Also for me to fly to Cabo from Provo the Eagle II makes it no problem. Stallion not so much. If it does make it you are sweating for the last 45 min of the flight.
You have exhaustively figured out what is best for you, thank you by the way as I learned a lot thru your process. And you are right. But your analysis does it apply to all. :-)
Mike I still don't think you are comparing apples to oranges. With the JT15D you would not ever have a $400K bad day given what you can buy used engines for. Likewise, if you sucked in a bird it would be your insurance paying, not your engine programs.
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Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp Posted: 19 Jun 2021, 16:00 |
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Joined: 08/31/17 Posts: 1589 Post Likes: +623
Aircraft: C180
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Username Protected wrote: ….. I doubt I will pay program for the entire life if the engine. So that point doesn’t hold with a guy like me.
Mike Highlighted an interesting art of your post above You’ve done homework on what off program does to the value of your plane? I kind of understood it was all or nothing, that a Williams anything ooff program was near zero
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Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp Posted: 19 Jun 2021, 16:22 |
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Joined: 02/15/21 Posts: 2514 Post Likes: +1240
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Username Protected wrote: ….. I doubt I will pay program for the entire life if the engine. So that point doesn’t hold with a guy like me.
Mike Highlighted an interesting art of your post above You’ve done homework on what off program does to the value of your plane? I kind of understood it was all or nothing, that a Williams anything ooff program was near zero Saw a video of a guy recounting how he bought a Mustang and thought the purchase price included the engine programs and the amounts paid into the programs. After the sale, seller said no, it doesn't. Buyer had to sue the seller to get it sorted out.
_________________ Aviate, Navigate, Communicate, Administrate, Litigate.
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Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp Posted: 19 Jun 2021, 18:54 |
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Joined: 04/27/10 Posts: 1849 Post Likes: +823 Location: KFFZ & KGRR
Aircraft: BE36, CE501
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Username Protected wrote: Those videos make me wonder if I really want to work with those guys. Look At how often the CFI is making adjustments to throttles and avionics.
Who is in control of the plane? I have never had a CFI adjusting throttles and messing with pilot side controls like that. What the hell?
Mike Disclaimer - I haven't used FFC. That said, first of all, let's remember it was a lesson, and probably a very early lesson. Second, it appears the trainee was working on a crew license, not single pilot (I say that because of the "set power" call on the takeoff), and that's why the instructor set the thrust. Third, he pulled the left engine shortly after rotation, which is why the instructor grabbed the thrust lever, and then silenced the horn (although I probably would have let the student silence the horn, he is certainly going to have to get used to doing that in a Citation anyway). For all those reasons, I'm not critical of the instructor's actions.
_________________ Last 60 mos: CL65 type rating, flew 121, CE680, CE525S, and CE500 type ratings.
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Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp Posted: 19 Jun 2021, 19:52 |
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Joined: 12/31/17 Posts: 935 Post Likes: +540 Location: KADS
Aircraft: C560, C340
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Username Protected wrote: Good points. But if I am in final and my CFi makes a power adjustment that is not a simulated failure I am not cool with that. For me that’s not how I will learn.
Mike If you are talking about the instructor pulling the power to idle on short final the instructor should have told the student to go to idle, or did I miss that? After giving several FO's checkouts in Citations I can tell you when you tell the student to go to idle most will wait several seconds before they do it, long float. They are used to propeller airplanes that slow quickly when at idle, not the same in a jet. The other thing I have found with students used to flying SE airplanes is that they will fly a visual approach below normal. I think it is because they are used to looking over an engine.
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Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp Posted: 19 Jun 2021, 20:01 |
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Joined: 09/12/20 Posts: 9 Post Likes: +1
Aircraft: CE-501
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Username Protected wrote: Has anyone done a CE500 type rating at FFC? How was it?
I did my initial with FFC. Not a good experience for a number of reasons. Happy to provide details via PM. Thankfully my 501 has been great otherwise!
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Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp Posted: 19 Jun 2021, 20:29 |
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Joined: 01/17/21 Posts: 87 Post Likes: +42
Aircraft: C550
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Executive Flight Training 843-521-9412 In South Carolina ,Doug Carmody. They have a sim & do a lot of 500 series training .
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