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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 19 Jun 2021, 06:26 
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I got all excited about a 550 until I realized I needed 500 jet ours to get SP. so not possible for me.

So the Eagle II is the best performance jet I can get. It has the range and efficiency of the Citation II but I can fly it.

So for me it’s the best option. And the performance is amazing with FL430 and getting there none stop. Really amazing performance for the price.

So it’s not a matter of if I like program or not. I like the payload and range of the Eagle II. Just so happens I also like the idea of engine insurance and warranty. Anything worth getting cost something.

There is always a cheaper option and a more expensive one. At this price point it is right in my sweet spot.

Mike

501 airframe with FJ44's is a winning combo. Gives CJ2 performance with a slightly smaller cabin but has the ability to operate off turf strips. I would even expect Eagle II prices to approach CJ2 (non +) prices in a few years.

With the hot market, wonder how many more 501's will be converted to FJ44's? Does anyone know what percentage of the 501 fleet is now Williams powered? Isn't it about 15%?

By the way, whatever happened to the 2,500 lb PW625F? Let's give the FJ44 some competition!

Meanwhile for us "budget" guys, JT-15D's it is...

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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 19 Jun 2021, 12:27 
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Username Protected wrote:
I would even expect Eagle II prices to approach CJ2 (non +) prices in a few years.

FJ44 converted 501 is less than half the price of a CJ2 typically. If CJ2 prices come down, I expect that ratio to still hold as people would buy CJ2s for 2x what they can buy a 501 with FJ44.

Quote:
With the hot market, wonder how many more 501's will be converted to FJ44's?

None.

Can't put $2.5M investment into a $1M outcome. Those with that type of money will get a CJ something.

Quote:
Does anyone know what percentage of the 501 fleet is now Williams powered? Isn't it about 15%?

I know of 15 Eagle IIs (one hull loss leaving 13 left).
I know of 17 Stallions.

This includes both 500 and 501 types. About 650 were made. So maybe around 5%.

There are 3 Stallions listed on controller.com right now, $1.15M, $950K, $850K.

IMO, Stallions are the better choice than the Eagle II. The extra fuel of the Eagle II adds a bit to range, but it also slows down the airplane quite a bit, more than you would think. If you look at the total time for a trip, the extra speed and lightness of the Stallion help it mostly compensate for the extra fuel stop in the fairly narrow range when it is required.

Also, the workmanship of the fuel humps varies a lot, some are badly installed from what I have seen.

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Meanwhile for us "budget" guys, JT-15D's it is...

It is for now. If fuel doubles, FJ44 guys win. If Williams jacks prices, JT15D guys win. The JT15D gives the operator choices in HSI/OH and even to fly past OH. You have none of that with Williams, you are totally at their mercy.

Williams terms can be very unforgiving, plus they have a 150 hour/year minimum. So it is $50K/year payment regardless, and then about $320/hour for any hour over 150 that year. That buys 100 gallons/hour of fuel.

On a typical 5000 hour TBO cycle, you will pay Williams $1.6M in today dollars. Your are basically renting your own plane from Williams.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 19 Jun 2021, 12:46 
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Username Protected wrote:

Williams terms can be very unforgiving, plus they have a 150 hour/year minimum. So it is $50K/year payment regardless, and then about $320/hour for any hour over 150 that year. That buys 100 gallons/hour of fuel.

On a typical 5000 hour TBO cycle, you will pay Williams $1.6M in today dollars. Your are basically renting your own plane from Williams.

Mike C.


I don't know about you, but when Adobe changed to their cloud system for all their software and you had to start "renting" it for a monthly cost (that would go up each year, of course), I checked out (even though I liked their software). I just personally can't stand that business model. I want to own whatever it is I've paid for if I can.

Seems like Williams is the Adobe of the jet world.

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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 19 Jun 2021, 13:47 
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Mike C. Pretty sure most CJ2 are on William’s program. So you can’t use that against the Eagle II

I doubt I will pay program for the entire life if the engine. So that point doesn’t hold with a guy like me.

You are also ignoring the value of insurance for anything to go wrong. For a guy like me it’s way easier to pay $325hr than have a $400k bill if I have a really bad day. People including you and I pay an enormous amount of money for the risk management insurance offers.

Also for me to fly to Cabo from Provo the Eagle II makes it no problem. Stallion not so much. If it does make it you are sweating for the last 45 min of the flight.

You have exhaustively figured out what is best for you, thank you by the way as I learned a lot thru your process. And you are right. But your analysis does it apply to all. :-)

Mike

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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 19 Jun 2021, 14:20 
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Mike C. Pretty sure most CJ2 are on William’s program. So you can’t use that against the Eagle II

I doubt I will pay program for the entire life if the engine. So that point doesn’t hold with a guy like me.

You are also ignoring the value of insurance for anything to go wrong. For a guy like me it’s way easier to pay $325hr than have a $400k bill if I have a really bad day. People including you and I pay an enormous amount of money for the risk management insurance offers.

Also for me to fly to Cabo from Provo the Eagle II makes it no problem. Stallion not so much. If it does make it you are sweating for the last 45 min of the flight.

You have exhaustively figured out what is best for you, thank you by the way as I learned a lot thru your process. And you are right. But your analysis does it apply to all. :-)

Mike


I still don't think you are comparing apples to oranges. With the JT15D you would not ever have a $400K bad day given what you can buy used engines for. Likewise, if you sucked in a bird it would be your insurance paying, not your engine programs.


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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 19 Jun 2021, 16:00 
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Username Protected wrote:
…..
I doubt I will pay program for the entire life if the engine. So that point doesn’t hold with a guy like me.

Mike

Highlighted an interesting art of your post above
You’ve done homework on what off program does to the value of your plane?
I kind of understood it was all or nothing, that a Williams anything ooff program was near zero


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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 19 Jun 2021, 16:22 
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Username Protected wrote:
…..
I doubt I will pay program for the entire life if the engine. So that point doesn’t hold with a guy like me.

Mike

Highlighted an interesting art of your post above
You’ve done homework on what off program does to the value of your plane?
I kind of understood it was all or nothing, that a Williams anything ooff program was near zero

Saw a video of a guy recounting how he bought a Mustang and thought the purchase price included the engine programs and the amounts paid into the programs. After the sale, seller said no, it doesn't. Buyer had to sue the seller to get it sorted out.
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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 19 Jun 2021, 18:07 
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Watched these videos from Florida Flight Center. This is exactly the kind of hands-on experience I would want while getting a type rating. Has anyone done a CE500 type rating at FFC? How was it?

[youtube]https://youtu.be/PRBn4_4toA4[/youtube]
[youtube]https://youtu.be/szoirVOXZj0[/youtube]

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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 19 Jun 2021, 18:39 
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Those videos make me wonder if I really want to work with those guys. Look
At how often the CFI is making adjustments to throttles and avionics.

Who is in control of the plane? I have never had a CFI adjusting throttles and messing with pilot side controls like that. What the hell?


Mike

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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 19 Jun 2021, 18:54 
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Those videos make me wonder if I really want to work with those guys. Look
At how often the CFI is making adjustments to throttles and avionics.

Who is in control of the plane? I have never had a CFI adjusting throttles and messing with pilot side controls like that. What the hell?


Mike

Disclaimer - I haven't used FFC.

That said, first of all, let's remember it was a lesson, and probably a very early lesson. Second, it appears the trainee was working on a crew license, not single pilot (I say that because of the "set power" call on the takeoff), and that's why the instructor set the thrust. Third, he pulled the left engine shortly after rotation, which is why the instructor grabbed the thrust lever, and then silenced the horn (although I probably would have let the student silence the horn, he is certainly going to have to get used to doing that in a Citation anyway).

For all those reasons, I'm not critical of the instructor's actions.

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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 19 Jun 2021, 19:00 
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Good points. But if I am in final and my CFi makes a power adjustment that is not a simulated failure I am not cool with that. For me that’s not how I will learn.

Mike

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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 19 Jun 2021, 19:52 
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Good points. But if I am in final and my CFi makes a power adjustment that is not a simulated failure I am not cool with that. For me that’s not how I will learn.

Mike


If you are talking about the instructor pulling the power to idle on short final the instructor should have told the student to go to idle, or did I miss that? After giving several FO's checkouts in Citations I can tell you when you tell the student to go to idle most will wait several seconds before they do it, long float. They are used to propeller airplanes that slow quickly when at idle, not the same in a jet.

The other thing I have found with students used to flying SE airplanes is that they will fly a visual approach below normal. I think it is because they are used to looking over an engine.


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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 19 Jun 2021, 20:01 
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Has anyone done a CE500 type rating at FFC? How was it?


I did my initial with FFC. Not a good experience for a number of reasons. Happy to provide details via PM. Thankfully my 501 has been great otherwise!


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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 19 Jun 2021, 20:06 
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Company: Centurion LV and Eleusis
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Mike O

Yes the CFi pulled power back to idle on final. I don’t know maybe I am just being too critical but I don’t want a CFI making any adjustments like that unless it’s for safety and I would have really screwed up.

I would rather the CFI let me stay high and fast then tell me I screwed up and go around. That would be better learning for me than him fixing the issue.

Edit. FYI I do not know the guys at this training facility and I have never been to any jet type rating. So I could be completely full of crap. Haha

Mike

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Last edited on 19 Jun 2021, 21:20, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 19 Jun 2021, 20:29 
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Executive Flight Training 843-521-9412 In South Carolina ,Doug Carmody. They have a sim & do a lot of 500 series training .


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