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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 20 Jun 2021, 10:37 
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13 days.

5 days ground school, 6 days sim, 1 day off, 1 day checkride.

We were in a class with 9 students CE-500 initial at FSI Atlanta. They said it was the largest initial class size they have ever had. Sim was scheduled from 0600 to 0000 every day, My sim buddy and I were 2000-0000, so I got 2 hours of PIC, 2 hours of SIC every sim day.

I felt like I could have done ground school and sim on the same days, and done more sim time each day.

Mike C.


For sure.
I did mine at sky blue 1 on 1. 6 days total. 2 days ground. 1 day sim. 2 days in airplane. Then ride.
Had about 1400 tt with no TF time.

Hi Israel,

So no turbofan time, but I take it you had at least 500 turboprop time? Were you good to go single pilot after the check ride?
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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 20 Jun 2021, 10:49 
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Joined: 12/16/07
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I went to Premier Jet Training Center in Stuart Florida after getting some local instruction. They had a Citation II with dual Garmins at the time which is what I had in the King Air I had been flying.

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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 20 Jun 2021, 11:26 
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A 501 is 100 times easier to fly than your 421.

Until 3 things go wrong at once.

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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 20 Jun 2021, 11:42 
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A 501 is 100 times easier to fly than your 421.


I remember people telling me that when I stepped up from the King Air.
Different systems and flows. Transition to crew training. Could be a flight director and different avionics. Things happen faster and ATC treats you differently. There’s a lot to learn and get proficient with.

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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 20 Jun 2021, 11:49 
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The problem with 10+ day initial school is most of it is deep systems stuff that requires a ton of rote memorization and studying diagrams to understand how things flow. 2 weeks after the initial, I'd say my brain had dumped 80% of it... maybe 90. I guess the theory is you go back year after year and after a number of years that percentage of lost info goes down a bit every year.

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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 20 Jun 2021, 12:34 
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I'm actually not surprised about the 25 hour SOE requirement for some new jet pilots.

Frankly, before I started learning about the type rating process, I had imagined it was a bit like getting an instrument rating: you fly with an instructor for 20 or so hours in a real jet, take a written, and then do a checkride.

But the system is set up so that professional pilots who often end up with several type ratings don't have to fly a bunch of hours for each new type (they already know the basics of flying a jet) and only have to focus on learning the systems of a new jet, which can be done with ground schooling and a sim.

So basically for new jet pilots, instead of doing 25 actual flying hours at the front end, they do it at the back end.

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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 20 Jun 2021, 12:37 
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For me, 1/3 the battle in the sim is learning to work the checklist (and memory items). If You can get comfortable with this stuff before our show up, the rest is pretty easy.

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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 20 Jun 2021, 12:42 
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The problem with 10+ day initial school is most of it is deep systems stuff that requires a ton of rote memorization and studying diagrams to understand how things flow. 2 weeks after the initial, I'd say my brain had dumped 80% of it... maybe 90. I guess the theory is you go back year after year and after a number of years that percentage of lost info goes down a bit every year.


I agree and feel the same way. I sometimes wonder what the purpose of all of the systems training is when more than 50% of GA accidents with a hull loss are due to loss of control.

I’m sure systems knowledge has bailed some guys out of bad situations but no one ever speculates, oh he should have had more systems knowledge and he wouldn’t have crashed.

The 10 days may still be needed, but less emphasis on the systems and more on flows, sim (or in aircraft), and specific LOC training.


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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 20 Jun 2021, 13:11 
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Brent.

Not sure about that.


With most Jet LOC like the 501 in TN and the 525 in UT there could have been a system issue that the pilot could not figure out. While he is trying to figure it out he loses control. At least with the 525 in UT it was clear there was a system issue. He was confused and lost. Sometimes it’s as simple as a pitot heat not on. Knowing what that looks like and fixing it fast can save your life.

I think many LOC are caused by confusion about what the plane is doing or not doing. Look at the Boeing Max system. When you hear what those guys were fighting and knew all they had to do was pull back power and shut down the system that was trying to kill them. All those people died because those guys didn’t understand the aircraft systems, not flying skills.

Basically those guys were doing their ground school training with passengers in the air.

Mike

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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 20 Jun 2021, 14:37 
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Username Protected wrote:

For sure.
I did mine at sky blue 1 on 1. 6 days total. 2 days ground. 1 day sim. 2 days in airplane. Then ride.
Had about 1400 tt with no TF time.

Hi Israel,

So no turbofan time, but I take it you had at least 500 turboprop time? Were you good to go single pilot after the check ride?


Only about 50 hours of tp time shared between a PC12 and a TBM 850.
Due to low time and first type rating the dpe wouldn't release me sp. I came back 2 months later flew with him for 20 minutes, single engine precision approach, and got released sp.

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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 20 Jun 2021, 14:50 
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Hi Israel,

So no turbofan time, but I take it you had at least 500 turboprop time? Were you good to go single pilot after the check ride?


Only about 50 hours of tp time shared between a PC12 and a TBM 850.
Due to low time and first type rating the dpe wouldn't release me sp. I came back 2 months later flew with him for 20 minutes, single engine precision approach, and got released sp.

Ah, ok. But you took the first check ride in a real plane, so technically no need for the 25 hours SOE, right? What did you do during those two months to make the DPE happy on the second ride?
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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 20 Jun 2021, 14:58 
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Username Protected wrote:

Only about 50 hours of tp time shared between a PC12 and a TBM 850.
Due to low time and first type rating the dpe wouldn't release me sp. I came back 2 months later flew with him for 20 minutes, single engine precision approach, and got released sp.

Ah, ok. But you took the first check ride in a real plane, so technically no need for the 25 hours SOE, right? What did you do during those two months to make the DPE happy on the second ride?


He implied that for liability purposes it wouldn't look good that he released me sp on a 5 day initial type. I just flew for a couple months and came back for the sign off. At that point it wasn't an "initial" so everyone is happy...

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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 20 Jun 2021, 15:43 
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Username Protected wrote:
A 501 is 100 times easier to fly than your 421.

Until 3 things go wrong at once.


If the same three things go wrong in each airplane, give me the jet.

Robert T

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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 20 Jun 2021, 16:13 
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A couple of things come to mind.

Do not go to initial or recurrent training weak on instrument flying.

Do learn the SOPs for that aircraft before you go. They should be in your training manual.
You will be far ahead of the game.

Learn how to properly use a Flight Director. It’s much easier.

Like most on here, I’ve sat through mind numbing systems descriptions, especially in the big name sim schools. I think it is to try to justify their exorbitant fee. Taking a full morning to tell you where the bathrooms are, the cafeteria is,etc..

Unlike piston airplanes, jets are not underpowered. They will easily fly, land, and go around on one engine. The engines being located nearer to the centerline makes this a lot easier.

Remember there are Normal, Abnormal, and Emergency procedures.

Flying the airplane is one thing, operating the airplane is another. Learn both. Most courses are there to teach you how to pass the checkride and be safe, not operate the airplane day to day.


Robert T


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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 20 Jun 2021, 21:40 
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He implied that for liability purposes it wouldn't look good that he released me sp on a 5 day initial type. I just flew for a couple months and came back for the sign off. At that point it wasn't an "initial" so everyone is happy...

I plan to dig into this next week as I continue to research where to do my initial. I know we are all scared of DPEs, but I'm curious if anyone has challenged this practice? As I understand it (from reading this thread, I have not yet tried to look it up anywhere), if you take the check-ride in a Single Pilot aircraft and pass the check-ride without the DPE acting as a crewmember, you have demonstrated that you can safely operate the aircraft SP. Isn't that the whole point of the check-ride? Why do they think that they can mark you SIC required simply "because they feel like it"?

I have less of a problem w/ an SOE notation (although I believe that one is also not permitted if the check-ride was done in-aircraft). That just requires an FSDO visit with logbook in hand. But SIC required requires yet another check-ride (and I assume, another large DPE fee). It feels like a cash grab by the DPE and they should be smacked for that.


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