Tarver.


They are a pretty conservative group, so I've already modeled their opinion as negative on the idea. They would prefer new initiates be safe operators as that affects their situation indirectly. Similarly, the last thing I want is a unsafe MU2 operator and if someone asked me about a 3 day MU2 initial, I'd be negative about that as well.

So I have elected not to ask the question in the CJP forum. Some of them still have a decent opinion of me and I can keep that going a little longer if I don't ask what might be perceived as a stupid question.


I don't care about the boast. I care about my passengers going places safely.

That's probably the biggest issue here. I can probably get my type rating in 3 days. I'm probably knowledgeable enough, skilled enough, and driven enough to do that.

But what will happen is that when the rushed training gets to some issue I want to explore more, there's no time for that, especially at $1300/hour, so we apply some quick "pass the test" training and move on. That's not really my style. I don't want to train for the test, I want to train for the real use case. Train like you fly, fly like you train. This experiment probably isn't that.


The in airplane training is necessarily much more limited. The sim provides vastly more opportunities. Different airports, different weather, different conditions of weight, CG, winds, altitudes, temperatures, and you can practice procedures at a rate 3 to 4 times as fast as the real airplane. The sim is a far superior learning environment, IMO. Meanwhile, the actual airplane is beset by safety, traffic, weather, location limitations.

Despite the legality of it, I don't think a sim only type rating course means I am ready to hop in and fly a real airplane. There will be a long mentoring period. The purpose of the mentoring period is not so much to teach me the things I don't know, but to teach me the limits of what I don't know so I can stay within those limits. Ignorance is far more deadly than known inability.

Mike C.

Mentor hours are generally 25 hours. That what jj got despite 30 some hours as SIC.

I'd guess they accept it with a large mentoring requirement. Or perhaps a requirement for a 61.58 in sim within 6 months.

My insurance broker indicated the underwriters prefer type in sim. I'm not sure how much difference that would make in the premium or the mentoring requirement, but he was pretty clear about the preference.

I believe this sim preference comes from a long history of jet pilots being trained in sims. I doubt very many Gulfstream pilots get their type in airplane, for example. That long and successful history, combined with the generally high fidelity of jet sims, has established sims as the standard in jet pilot training.

Mike C.

The offer to go fly for a weekend is generous. However, I think doing it for a type isn’t the best objective. You’ve acknowledged that you’ll need more time and mentoring. So, the weekend of flying would be an excellent way to get some perspective and comfort with the airplane. Then, off to a type school to finish it off. I was amazed at how well I felt about the flying the airplane after I received my type. My SOE time afterward was very fulfilling as we practiced all types of procedures in terminal environments. Regardless, you’ll likely end up training through a thorough process. If you make that part of the rating process, you’ll be better off.

Congrats on the new bird! Just out of curiosity, how hard was it to get insured on the citation with no twin/turbine time? We are currently looking at stepping up to a 400 series twin Cessna and the rates are pretty high just for that

I'd guess they accept it with a large mentoring requirement. Or perhaps a requirement for a 61.58 in sim within 6 months.

My insurance broker indicated the underwriters prefer type in sim. I'm not sure how much difference that would make in the premium or the mentoring requirement, but he was pretty clear about the preference.

I believe this sim preference comes from a long history of jet pilots being trained in sims. I doubt very many Gulfstream pilots get their type in airplane, for example. That long and successful history, combined with the generally high fidelity of jet sims, has established sims as the standard in jet pilot training.

Mike C.

Depends on hull value insured and liability. As a % of hull value Citation insurance is less then prop planes. Can be 1% of hull or less.

An excellent idea.

Instead of trying to make this adventure be a type rating, go to Florida and just fly the airplane a bit.

Saves DPE cost: $2,000

Saves DPE check ride airplane cost: $1300

Eliminates DPE schedule concerns.

Allows concentration on practical aspects and less on the test.

Essentially, it is just instructor and airplane at about $1600/hour, so $6400 for 4 hours?

Tarver's motivation seemed to be directed at demonstrating the ease of getting a type rating in a short period of time, so this may not fit with his intentions, so he has to indicate if the above is acceptable.

Mike C.

501SP is under 12,500 lbs.

12,000 lbs max ramp weight, 11,850 lbs max takeoff.

I would never have "operational control" of the aircraft in any case.

Mike C.

An excellent idea.

Instead of trying to make this adventure be a type rating, go to Florida and just fly the airplane a bit.

Saves DPE cost: $2,000

Saves DPE check ride airplane cost: $1300

Eliminates DPE schedule concerns.

Allows concentration on practical aspects and less on the test.

Essentially, it is just instructor and airplane at about $1600/hour, so $6400 for 4 hours?

Tarver's motivation seemed to be directed at demonstrating the ease of getting a type rating in a short period of time, so this may not fit with his intentions, so he has to indicate if the above is acceptable.

Mike C.

Just a word of advice as I haven't seen this mentioned in the thread - in order for the Citation 501's insurer to cover a loss which could occur during training - the usage (training conducted with other than named pilots) would have to be approved by the underwriting company on the policy. Also the subject trainee pilot would have to be approved by said underwriter on the policy or meet the open pilot minimums (obviously trainee would not meet the open pilot in this case due to no type rating, no prior make/model time etc).

If this base is not covered on insurance (regardless of who is PIC) and a loss occurs while trainee is at the controls (think hard landing for instance) - the policy coverage may very well be compromised. Just a good idea to make sure everything is upfront and approved by the underwriting company before conducting any training to the pilot in question.

Hi Mike, Let's do it. We will split the costs to make it legal Part 91 and go somewhere nice for lunch.

Mike

SOE will all be post Type

Makes sense, but I was looking for some additional value to MC's weekend adventure. Thanks for clarifying.

Makes sense, but I was looking for some additional value to MC's weekend adventure. Thanks for clarifying.