24 Apr 2024, 11:44 [ UTC - 5; DST ]
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Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp  Posted: 09 Jul 2019, 01:42 |
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Joined: 02/17/15
Posts: 579
Post Likes: +704
Location: Bellevue WA
Aircraft: T210M
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I think everyone is getting to stuck up on “Gee Wizz” panels. G500’s duel 750’s, latest and greatest everything.
I bought a T-210 with a panel I was familiar with, GNS 480, round dials, KFC 200 autopilot. It all works great and can be repaired with used components fairly easily.
The latest and greatest won’t make it any faster and only reduces the “useful load” of my wallet.
A 501SP Citation with a maintainable panel is a great airplane.
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Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp Posted: 09 Jul 2019, 08:15 |
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Joined: 05/05/09
Posts: 4966
Post Likes: +4797
Aircraft: G44, C501, C55, R66
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Username Protected wrote: I think everyone is getting to stuck up on “Gee Wizz” panels. G500’s duel 750’s, latest and greatest everything.
I bought a T-210 with a panel I was familiar with, GNS 480, round dials, KFC 200 autopilot. It all works great and can be repaired with used components fairly easily.
The latest and greatest won’t make it any faster and only reduces the “useful load” of my wallet.
A 501SP Citation with a maintainable panel is a great airplane. I couldn't agree more. I like glass panels but they don't change the mission of arriving safely over a 400W and an Ipad. The four essentials are situational awareness, terrain, traffic and weather. We haven't done too much to change those basics since the 400 series came out.
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Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp Posted: 09 Jul 2019, 10:17 |
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Joined: 05/29/13
Posts: 13588
Post Likes: +10972
Company: Easy Ice, LLC
Location: Marquette, Michigan; Scottsdale, AZ, Telluride
Aircraft: C510,C185,C310,R66
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Username Protected wrote: I think everyone is getting to stuck up on “Gee Wizz” panels. G500’s duel 750’s, latest and greatest everything.
I bought a T-210 with a panel I was familiar with, GNS 480, round dials, KFC 200 autopilot. It all works great and can be repaired with used components fairly easily.
The latest and greatest won’t make it any faster and only reduces the “useful load” of my wallet.
A 501SP Citation with a maintainable panel is a great airplane. I couldn't agree more. I like glass panels but they don't change the mission of arriving safely over a 400W and an Ipad. The four essentials are situational awareness, terrain, traffic and weather. We haven't done too much to change those basics since the 400 series came out.
So you like legacy panels. Kewl. Some guys like glass. Trying to figure out the takeaway? When you say "everyone is getting "stuck up" on Gee Wizz panels..." it seems, I dunno, maybe a bit pegorative?
Was there a theme here like "i would buy a 501 but for the legacy panel?" I don't recall that.
_________________
Mark Hangen
Deputy Minister of Ice (aka FlyingIceperson)
Power of the Turbine
"Jet Elite"
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Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp Posted: 09 Jul 2019, 12:12 |
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Joined: 03/01/14
Posts: 2152
Post Likes: +1644
Location: 0TX0 Granbury TX
Aircraft: T-210M Aeronca 7AC
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The question remains; “What will become obsolete or unsupported first?”
The older stuff works remarkably well.
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Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp Posted: 09 Jul 2019, 13:11 |
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Joined: 11/25/16
Posts: 1824
Post Likes: +1398
Location: 2IS
Aircraft: C501
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Username Protected wrote: ... it seems, I dunno, maybe a bit pegorative?... One might say pejorative even.  
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Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp Posted: 09 Jul 2019, 13:52 |
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Joined: 05/29/13
Posts: 13588
Post Likes: +10972
Company: Easy Ice, LLC
Location: Marquette, Michigan; Scottsdale, AZ, Telluride
Aircraft: C510,C185,C310,R66
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Username Protected wrote: ... it seems, I dunno, maybe a bit pegorative?... One might say pejorative even.
Ha. BT needs spell check! 
_________________
Mark Hangen
Deputy Minister of Ice (aka FlyingIceperson)
Power of the Turbine
"Jet Elite"
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Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp Posted: 23 Jul 2019, 11:52 |
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Joined: 10/05/09
Posts: 1166
Post Likes: +421
Location: Charleston, SC (KJZI)
Aircraft: Phenom 300, R66
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Username Protected wrote: 1100 miles plus yesterday in the 501sp twice! Not much wind either way. FL370 takes a while and shallow climbs in the Citation are best. 200kts indicated until FL200 and then 185kts indicated. If you try to do more than that up high you can get caught plowing through the air and having to descend. A few minor bugs but nothing major. Reasonably fast and super quiet and comfortable. 800lbs/hour in cruise at about 335knots. Easy and fun to fly. Highly recommend. In the Phenom 100 its FLC 200K until ~28-30K depending on the ISA and about the same time as IAS flips to Mach 0.55. Then I move to VS climb at 1000fpm and monitor IAS; FLC starts to hunt too much. By the time you get to FL370 Mach 0.55 is about 185K so not much different than your method.
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Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp Posted: 23 Jul 2019, 12:18 |
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Joined: 03/18/09
Posts: 1144
Post Likes: +203
Company: Elemental - Pipistrel
Location: KHCR
Aircraft: Citation CJ2+
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Username Protected wrote:
In the Phenom 100 its FLC 200K until ~28-30K depending on the ISA and about the same time as IAS flips to Mach 0.55. Then I move to VS climb at 1000fpm and monitor IAS; FLC starts to hunt too much. By the time you get to FL370 Mach 0.55 is about 185K so not much different than your method.
I've heard of some people getting bit by the VS in the climb. They get distracted, etc. One of the adopted SOPs from the CJP safety foundation is to not use VS in the climb. I know you are monitoring - so not an issue for you - but it can be an issue for others... -Jason
_________________
--
Jason Talley
Pipistrel Distributor
http://www.elemental.aero
CJ2+
7GCBC
A-1C Husky
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Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp Posted: 23 Jul 2019, 12:22 |
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Joined: 08/03/10
Posts: 1562
Post Likes: +1781
Company: D&M Leasing Houston
Location: Katy, TX (KTME)
Aircraft: CitationV/C180
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Username Protected wrote: Glad you are enjoying it! What was your total fuel burn for each leg? 3100 lbs
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Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp Posted: 23 Jul 2019, 12:26 |
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Joined: 12/17/13
Posts: 6359
Post Likes: +5543
Location: Hollywood, Los Angeles, CA
Aircraft: Turbo Commander 680V
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Username Protected wrote:
In the Phenom 100 its FLC 200K until ~28-30K depending on the ISA and about the same time as IAS flips to Mach 0.55. Then I move to VS climb at 1000fpm and monitor IAS; FLC starts to hunt too much. By the time you get to FL370 Mach 0.55 is about 185K so not much different than your method.
I've heard of some people getting bit by the VS in the climb. They get distracted, etc. One of the adopted SOPs from the CJP safety foundation is to not use VS in the climb. I know you are monitoring - so not an issue for you - but it can be an issue for others... -Jason
Seems to me IAS climb is the only safe way in the long run. Can an old 501SP A/P do that?
_________________
Problem is the intelligent people are full of doubt, while the stupid ones are full of confidence.
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Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp Posted: 23 Jul 2019, 12:36 |
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Joined: 10/05/09
Posts: 1166
Post Likes: +421
Location: Charleston, SC (KJZI)
Aircraft: Phenom 300, R66
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Username Protected wrote:
In the Phenom 100 its FLC 200K until ~28-30K depending on the ISA and about the same time as IAS flips to Mach 0.55. Then I move to VS climb at 1000fpm and monitor IAS; FLC starts to hunt too much. By the time you get to FL370 Mach 0.55 is about 185K so not much different than your method.
I've heard of some people getting bit by the VS in the climb. They get distracted, etc. One of the adopted SOPs from the CJP safety foundation is to not use VS in the climb. I know you are monitoring - so not an issue for you - but it can be an issue for others... -Jason
You are quite correct in that you have to pay attention to IAS. Eddie from Code7700 speaks to this point as this is a common technique even in the big iron. He puts his watch in his hand to remind him that something needs to monitored. It isn't too hard to pay attention, given there are only a few minutes left of climb remaining and this stage is typically a low workload. Unless it is really hot and/or I am very heavy a 1000fpm isn't a problem and typically the jet is still accelerating well past Mach 0.55.
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Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp Posted: 23 Jul 2019, 13:50 |
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Joined: 07/29/08
Posts: 194
Post Likes: +17
Location: Redmond, WA
Aircraft: Citation 501
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Username Protected wrote: FL370 takes a while and shallow climbs in the Citation are best. 200kts indicated until FL200 and then 185kts indicated. If you try to do more than that up high you can get caught plowing through the air and having to descend. That's not been my experience.. I can get mine to climb at max climb rate per the Cessna AFM and the aircraft does just fine and close to book performance and fuel burn numbers.
_________________
Sameer
KBFI
Citation 501
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