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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 26 Apr 2018, 08:30 
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Training to take the checkride and training to fly the airplane are two totally separate matters. Obviously, they are related in that training to take a checkride teaches you something about flying the the airplane but solid training doesn't necessarily mean you can pass a checkride.

If you are taking a checkride, study and practice only what you need to pass the checkride. The words from the guy that gave me my MES rating in a Widgeon said, "just understand that you passed the test but you are in no way qualified to fly a Widgeon". After buying a Widgeon, I hired an instructor to teach me how to fly it. Same deal with a type rating.

DPEs could care less whether you pass or fail. There's very little gray area in the PTS, it says do these basic maneuvers to these basic standards. The DPE is also not endorsing you as safe and competent. He is merely passing judgement on your ability to recite jargon from the operating manual and fly the basic maneuvers.

The checkride world is really no different than college or any other academic environment in that "good" students are the ones who perform well on tests but this doesn't necessarily mean they are smart!


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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 26 Apr 2018, 08:30 
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Username Protected wrote:
on the other hand many SIM instrutors have never actually step foot in the aircraft!


Hi Mark,

That’s not my experience at FSI at SAT. Alex and I have just done a 61.58 over the last three days togeather. Awesome time getting to see each other perform in the SIM, great learning experience for Alex seeing all my mistakes....

Our SIM instructor flys a CJ2+ currently, the gentlemen who took our classes flys a CJ and I had a good chat to the 525 program manager who flys a CJ2 and CJ3.

Andrew

And Andrew got to see me crash with departure windshear set to extreme... that would be an interesting excercise to watch in the airplane... from far away!

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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 26 Apr 2018, 08:32 
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Username Protected wrote:

Hi Mark,

That’s not my experience at FSI at SAT. Alex and I have just done a 61.58 over the last three days togeather. Awesome time getting to see each other perform in the SIM, great learning experience for Alex seeing all my mistakes....

Our SIM instructor flys a CJ2+ currently, the gentlemen who took our classes flys a CJ and I had a good chat to the 525 program manager who flys a CJ2 and CJ3.

Andrew


At SIMCOM the director the Citation program had 0 time in the Citation but 1000's of 747 hours. First trip he ever took was in the Citation with me.

Most of their guys are retired 121 guys who lost their medical.


You get what you pay for.
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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 26 Apr 2018, 08:39 
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Username Protected wrote:
At SIMCOM the director the Citation program had 0 time in the Citation but 1000's of 747 hours. First trip he ever took was in the Citation with me.

Most of their guys are retired 121 guys who lost their medical


Kind of doesn’t seem right to me but I guess that’s how it works.

Our instructor was an F111 and F117 instructor and pilot, very knowledgeable and great to work with.

They were telling us how they work their schedules so they can fly the actual planes, all passionate aviatiors.

Andrew


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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 26 Apr 2018, 08:43 
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Location: Queretaro / Woodlands
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Username Protected wrote:
Training to take the checkride and training to fly the airplane are two totally separate matters. Obviously, they are related in that training to take a checkride teaches you something about flying the the airplane but solid training doesn't necessarily mean you can pass a checkride.

If you are taking a checkride, study and practice only what you need to pass the checkride. The words from the guy that gave me my MES rating in a Widgeon said, "just understand that you passed the test but you are in no way qualified to fly a Widgeon". After buying a Widgeon, I hired an instructor to teach me how to fly it. Same deal with a type rating.

DPEs could care less whether you pass or fail. There's very little gray area in the PTS, it says do these basic maneuvers to these basic standards. The DPE is also not endorsing you as safe and competent. He is merely passing judgement on your ability to recite jargon from the operating manual and fly the basic maneuvers.

The checkride world is really no different than college or any other academic environment in that "good" students are the ones who perform well on tests but this doesn't necessarily mean they are smart!

Ok - fair enough - point taken - DPEs only care about their $2500 check.

How many insurance companies would sign up to this plan? There are several insurance professionals on BT. Does this sound like a plan insurance companies would accept and who would underwrite it? What would be the limitations?


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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 26 Apr 2018, 08:57 
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Username Protected wrote:
You get what you pay for.


Ironically SIMCOM was more expensive and matched the FSI price. The kicker for me is SIMCOM is a 1/2 mile from my office.

Way more convenient.

I paid for a type and got it. All good.

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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 26 Apr 2018, 10:00 
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While I realize I had a unique opportunity due to my location, my path was ideal. Mark has been extremely generous.

Doing the training after you have flown the jet a bit will allow you to benefit from being up to speed during the instruction.

While the Simcom instructor doesn’t have Citation time, he knows every system on the plane in and out and he has an abundance of turbine experience that translates well to the jet noob. I learned a lot about the jet and about flying it systematically during my week at Simcom. Two weeks would have been a bore, but a week was FULL of training.

Less upfront experience, or a lesser approach to training, and I would not be at the confort level I am today. I know what it feels like to be behind a plane. I’m ahead of this one doing double the speed I have been. Now its all about making the trips as efficient and smooth as possible. I love that.


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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 26 Apr 2018, 10:08 
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Username Protected wrote:
While I realize I had a unique opportunity due to my location, my path was ideal. Mark has been extremely generous.

Doing the training after you have flown the jet a bit will allow you to benefit from being up to speed during the instruction.

While the Simcom instructor doesn’t have Citation time, he knows every system on the plane in and out and he has an abundance of turbine experience that translates well to the jet noob. I learned a lot about the jet and about flying it systematically during my week at Simcom. Two weeks would have been a bore, but a week was FULL of training.

Less upfront experience, or a lesser approach to training, and I would not be at the confort level I am today. I know what it feels like to be behind a plane. I’m ahead of this one doing double the speed I have been. Now its all about making the trips as efficient and smooth as possible. I love that.


Just imagine if you had jumped on it two years ago!

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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 26 Apr 2018, 10:51 
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MH doesn't just stick it in JJ to the hilt. He twists it guys. "two years ago" :duck:
:coffee:

The reality is what a great opportunity MH has given so many to get their feet wet burning Kero. What you do with it is up to you. JJ and others have added a new dimension to their lives and flying...


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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 26 Apr 2018, 11:17 
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Username Protected wrote:
You get what you pay for.


Ironically SIMCOM was more expensive and matched the FSI price. The kicker for me is SIMCOM is a 1/2 mile from my office.

Way more convenient.

I paid for a type and got it. All good.


FSI does the same thing. My last 4 Recurrents on the KA350 the instructor never flew the real airplane. One was a NetJets guys out for a medical reason, the other was a regional guy that was furloughed. Can’t remeber the rest. One of the GV instructors in Long Beach has never flown the actual plane.

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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 26 Apr 2018, 11:42 
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Joined: 12/03/14
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How are you renting it? Leasing it?

I was "renting" it by handing Tarver a check for $600 per flight hour of use.

Not clear to me exactly what this means legally. Since I wouldn't be PIC on any of the flights, not clear I was liable for the legality of the arrangement.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 26 Apr 2018, 11:46 
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Username Protected wrote:
How are you renting it? Leasing it?

I was "renting" it by handing Tarver a check for $600 per flight hour of use.

Not clear to me exactly what this means legally. Since I wouldn't be PIC on any of the flights, not clear I was liable for the legality of the arrangement.

Mike C.


Don’t think that’s legal. Doesn’t comply with truth in leasing. But SP might be less than 12,500lbs. Might be an exclusion for teaching.

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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 26 Apr 2018, 12:03 
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One thing I didn’t understand is who is the instructor?

Tarver.

Quote:
At any rate, I suggest you bring up the two day initial type rating adventure idea on CJP where you also participate. Most there own and fly these airplanes and you’ll get a well informed and rounded perspective.

They are a pretty conservative group, so I've already modeled their opinion as negative on the idea. They would prefer new initiates be safe operators as that affects their situation indirectly. Similarly, the last thing I want is a unsafe MU2 operator and if someone asked me about a 3 day MU2 initial, I'd be negative about that as well.

So I have elected not to ask the question in the CJP forum. Some of them still have a decent opinion of me and I can keep that going a little longer if I don't ask what might be perceived as a stupid question.

Quote:
Ask yourself, as easy as a Citation may be to fly, do you want the piece of paper and be able to boast about your two day type rating or do you want to get serious about learning how to operate a Citation?

I don't care about the boast. I care about my passengers going places safely.

That's probably the biggest issue here. I can probably get my type rating in 3 days. I'm probably knowledgeable enough, skilled enough, and driven enough to do that.

But what will happen is that when the rushed training gets to some issue I want to explore more, there's no time for that, especially at $1300/hour, so we apply some quick "pass the test" training and move on. That's not really my style. I don't want to train for the test, I want to train for the real use case. Train like you fly, fly like you train. This experiment probably isn't that.

Quote:
Have you researched everything you will be able learn in a more comprehensive program and what you’ll be able to practice in the sim that you won’t in the plane? Look at the content being covered in both instances.

The in airplane training is necessarily much more limited. The sim provides vastly more opportunities. Different airports, different weather, different conditions of weight, CG, winds, altitudes, temperatures, and you can practice procedures at a rate 3 to 4 times as fast as the real airplane. The sim is a far superior learning environment, IMO. Meanwhile, the actual airplane is beset by safety, traffic, weather, location limitations.

Despite the legality of it, I don't think a sim only type rating course means I am ready to hop in and fly a real airplane. There will be a long mentoring period. The purpose of the mentoring period is not so much to teach me the things I don't know, but to teach me the limits of what I don't know so I can stay within those limits. Ignorance is far more deadly than known inability.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 26 Apr 2018, 12:07 
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You get what you pay for.

You hope so.

You will never get more than you paid for.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 26 Apr 2018, 12:11 
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Joined: 12/03/14
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Username Protected wrote:
But SP might be less than 12,500lbs.

501SP is under 12,500 lbs.

12,000 lbs max ramp weight, 11,850 lbs max takeoff.

I would never have "operational control" of the aircraft in any case.

Mike C.

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