19 Apr 2024, 22:08 [ UTC - 5; DST ]
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Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp Posted: 22 Apr 2018, 11:44 |
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Joined: 12/03/14 Posts: 19252 Post Likes: +23622 Company: Ciholas, Inc Location: KEHR
Aircraft: C560V
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Username Protected wrote: The truth you can’t handle the truth Tell me the dates you have been surveyed for your operating costs in these surveys. If you say "none", I rest my case. I've never met a person who has been asked to provide data to these supposed experts about their costs. Mike C.
_________________ Email mikec (at) ciholas.com
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Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp Posted: 22 Apr 2018, 11:46 |
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Joined: 12/03/14 Posts: 19252 Post Likes: +23622 Company: Ciholas, Inc Location: KEHR
Aircraft: C560V
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Username Protected wrote: I strongly encourage this!! You are welcome to come fly mine anytime. Excellent! Can you based it at KEVV for me? Thanks! Mike C.
_________________ Email mikec (at) ciholas.com
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Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp Posted: 22 Apr 2018, 12:26 |
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Joined: 12/03/14 Posts: 19252 Post Likes: +23622 Company: Ciholas, Inc Location: KEHR
Aircraft: C560V
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Username Protected wrote: The latest B&CA annual survey reports that an MU2 Solitaire costs $3.63 in direct cost per nautical mile on that same 600 nm trip. Direct cost is fuel and maintenance (not hangar, insurance, taxes, etc). $3.63 per nm for a 600 nm trip is $2,178. That leg will take 2.2 hours (assuming still air) and burn ~170 gallons fuel. At $3.50/gallon, that is $595. That leaves $1,583 for maintenance, or $720 per hour for maintenance. Fails sanity check by a WIDE margin. People who lack the basic mathematical and logical skills to detect these errors will believe these fake numbers. Mike C.
_________________ Email mikec (at) ciholas.com
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Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp Posted: 22 Apr 2018, 13:42 |
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Joined: 12/03/14 Posts: 19252 Post Likes: +23622 Company: Ciholas, Inc Location: KEHR
Aircraft: C560V
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Username Protected wrote: What’s the type rating cost for a citation 501sp? Quick search show 12-15k. Is the accurate? Depends on how you do it, your preparation, talent, and skill. Simcom quoted me just over $12K, all in sim. I qualify for an all sim TC due to turbine hours I have in the MU2 (need 500 hours in turbines in same class, that is, multi engine land). It should be noted the $12K was at a discount for a returning customer (just did MU2 recurrent at Simcom in Feb). I think list is ~$18K. There are quite a number of instructors who will do it in airplane and they will charge something less, but you have airplane operating costs to contend with, not to mention needed use of a Citation. Figure ~15 hours operation I would guess. My insurance agent said the underwriters favor the sim courses for TC. I met an instructor at KSDL who said he had someone who was *40 hours* into their TC course, in airplane, and still not ready. The instructor had told the guy he wasn't jet material but the guy insisted on keep trying. The instructor is still doing it because he said he didn't want the guy finding someone else who would sign him off prematurely. Note the instructor had a flat fee, so this wasn't a money thing. Some people just do not have it, and that usually manifests itself in their lack of instrument skill and proficiency. If you are considering flying a jet, the cost of the TC is relatively immaterial, maybe 10 hours operating cost if you get it in sim. Relatively speaking, the cost of your PPL to rent a $150/hour 172 was *WAY* higher. PS: If you currently fly a turboprop, you can go get your turboprop recurrent at Simcom and the returning customer discount on the jet TC course essentially covers the recurrent or may be even more than the recurrent. So you get the turboprop recurrent for free, in effect. Mike C.
_________________ Email mikec (at) ciholas.com
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Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp Posted: 22 Apr 2018, 16:20 |
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Joined: 03/01/11 Posts: 213 Post Likes: +106
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Username Protected wrote: People who lack the basic mathematical and logical skills to detect these errors will believe these fake numbers. Conversely, people who lack basic research and reading skills are going to misunderstand any data they look at, and I think that's what happened to you. It appears you didn't read (or perhaps didn't understand) the B&CA methodology. The methodology they employ utilizes a national fuel cost snapshot at the time of publication (2017). Thus their fuel cost is higher than what you probably pay with contract fuel. That, in turn, raises the fuel portion of the direct operating cost and lowers the maintenance portion. The remaining maintenance portion of direct cost for the MU2 strikes me as still pretty high, but I assume that's only because it's an old plane with lots of old components that need expensive maintenance. Those are the numbers. Feel free to find another balanced, impartial survey of a broad base of operators if you're not satisfied with B&CA's conclusions. Ken
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Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp Posted: 22 Apr 2018, 19:30 |
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Joined: 12/03/14 Posts: 19252 Post Likes: +23622 Company: Ciholas, Inc Location: KEHR
Aircraft: C560V
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Username Protected wrote: Feel free to find another balanced, impartial survey of a broad base of operators if you're not satisfied with B&CA's conclusions. "broad base of operators"? I've yet to meet a SINGLE person who owns an MU2 who has been surveyed for B&CA numbers. Please list the dates they have surveyed YOU for the Eclipse. None you say? Okay, please list the dates and serial numbers of other Eclipses they have surveyed. Still none? Okay, ANYBODY reading this thread, list the dates you have been surveyed for B&CA's cost analysis report. <crickets> Case closed. They aren't surveying us owner operators and maybe no one else at all and just making up the numbers. Like many in today's society, you are guilty of putting faith in something because of how well it agrees with your views rather than the strength of the evidence and analysis behind it. Mike C.
_________________ Email mikec (at) ciholas.com
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Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp Posted: 22 Apr 2018, 19:32 |
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Joined: 12/03/14 Posts: 19252 Post Likes: +23622 Company: Ciholas, Inc Location: KEHR
Aircraft: C560V
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Username Protected wrote: If you memorize the systems and can fly the ATP profiles it is very easy to do it in your own airplane 6-7k. I assume this is instructor costs only, airplane hours are another matter. $6K buys about 5 hours of 501 time doing low altitude maneuvers, ain't no way that's enough to get a type rating and pay an instructor. Mike C.
_________________ Email mikec (at) ciholas.com
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Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp Posted: 22 Apr 2018, 19:53 |
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Joined: 05/29/13 Posts: 13587 Post Likes: +10972 Company: Easy Ice, LLC Location: Marquette, Michigan; Scottsdale, AZ, Telluride
Aircraft: C510,C185,C310,R66
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Username Protected wrote: Feel free to find another balanced, impartial survey of a broad base of operators if you're not satisfied with B&CA's conclusions. "broad base of operators"? I've yet to meet a SINGLE person who owns an MU2 who has been surveyed for B&CA numbers. Please list the dates they have surveyed YOU for the Eclipse. None you say? Okay, please list the dates and serial numbers of other Eclipses they have surveyed. Still none? Okay, ANYBODY reading this thread, list the dates you have been surveyed for B&CA's cost analysis report. <crickets> Case closed. They aren't surveying us owner operators and maybe no one else at all and just making up the numbers. Like many in today's society, you are guilty of putting faith in something because of how well it agrees with your views rather than the strength of the evidence and analysis behind it. Mike C.
Mike
I was surveyed at least six times in 8 years when I owned three turbine commanders. I was a member of NBAA.
Listing the dates is a pretty big ask as it was 10 years ago.
How much trouble do you want me to go through ?
_________________ Mark Hangen Deputy Minister of Ice (aka FlyingIceperson) Power of the Turbine "Jet Elite"
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Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp Posted: 22 Apr 2018, 20:21 |
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Joined: 05/05/09 Posts: 4962 Post Likes: +4796
Aircraft: G44, C501, C55, R66
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Username Protected wrote: If you memorize the systems and can fly the ATP profiles it is very easy to do it in your own airplane 6-7k. I assume this is instructor costs only, airplane hours are another matter. $6K buys about 5 hours of 501 time doing low altitude maneuvers, ain't no way that's enough to get a type rating and pay an instructor. Mike C.
Instructor 1,500 Dpe: $2,000 Fuel in your airplane is the rest
My type cost me around $6k
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Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp Posted: 22 Apr 2018, 20:46 |
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Joined: 05/29/13 Posts: 13587 Post Likes: +10972 Company: Easy Ice, LLC Location: Marquette, Michigan; Scottsdale, AZ, Telluride
Aircraft: C510,C185,C310,R66
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Username Protected wrote: $6K buys about 5 hours of 501 time doing low altitude maneuvers, ain't no way that's enough to get a type rating and pay an instructor. Mike C.[/quote] Mike, I'll give you the chance to take the Citation Challenge this weekend. Be in Florida on Friday morning and you will leave Sunday with a type rating for around $6K +/- $1,000. Obviously the weather is out of my control. Memorize the manual and systems this week.[/quote] Why does the word memorize sound so...bad? Do you mean learn the systems? Pretty certain Mike isn’t a memorization kind of guy.
_________________ Mark Hangen Deputy Minister of Ice (aka FlyingIceperson) Power of the Turbine "Jet Elite"
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Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp Posted: 22 Apr 2018, 20:53 |
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Joined: 05/05/09 Posts: 4962 Post Likes: +4796
Aircraft: G44, C501, C55, R66
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Username Protected wrote: $6K buys about 5 hours of 501 time doing low altitude maneuvers, ain't no way that's enough to get a type rating and pay an instructor. Mike C.
Mike, I'll give you the chance to take the Citation Challenge this weekend. Be in Florida on Friday morning and you will leave Sunday with a type rating for around $6K +/- $1,000. Obviously the weather is out of my control. Memorize the manual and systems this week.[/quote]
Why does the word memorize sound so...bad? Do you mean learn the systems? Pretty certain Mike isn’t a memorization kind of guy.[/quote]
The point is to get a type rating not learn how to fly the airplane. That's the business of most of the schools; study for the test. Taking a checkride has nothing to do with being a good pilot and lots of good pilots fail their checkride. Learning the airplane is best done with a mentor and some experience. Type Rating = License to Learn not a guarantee that you are safe and competent in the airplane.
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Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp Posted: 22 Apr 2018, 21:04 |
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Joined: 05/29/13 Posts: 13587 Post Likes: +10972 Company: Easy Ice, LLC Location: Marquette, Michigan; Scottsdale, AZ, Telluride
Aircraft: C510,C185,C310,R66
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Username Protected wrote: The point is to get a type rating not learn how to fly the airplane. That's the business of most of the schools; study for the test. Taking a checkride has nothing to do with being a good pilot and lots of good pilots fail their checkride. Learning the airplane is best done with a mentor and some experience. Type Rating = License to Learn not a guarantee that you are safe and competent in the airplane. I see. No futher questions. It all makes sense now. Thanks.
_________________ Mark Hangen Deputy Minister of Ice (aka FlyingIceperson) Power of the Turbine "Jet Elite"
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