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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 21 Apr 2021, 08:05 
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Username Protected wrote:

I highly doubt there's anyone cross shopping a 1.2m ultra with a 9m cj4...


One way Cessna can sell a more expensive plane is by touting the ease of single-pilot certification vs. SPE.

But, ok, let's say it's in Cessna's interests to promote a broad CE-500 single pilot type rating. I don't know, maybe it is. So, where is the lobbying? They did it with the SPE, what's stopping them now?

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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 21 Apr 2021, 09:13 
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Supporting and making more useful the older jets helps sell new jets. The same way that Barons have sold a lot of King Airs, I bet that smaller Citations sell larger, newer Citations as well.

You can get some first-time $9M sales, but a lot of buyers of $9M owner-flown jets are owners of $1-$4M owner-flown jets.


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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 21 Apr 2021, 11:09 
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My how days have changed. I’ve actually given dual in a Citation to a freshly minted type rated student. I still am without a Citation type. It’s been affectionately known as the noisy 182.


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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 21 Apr 2021, 13:34 
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Username Protected wrote:
To reiterate, the ideal sequence is:

Get your type rating at sim school. Need to demonstrate you have what it takes to be a jet pilot. Don't even talk to the insurance until you are multi, instrument, typed.

Get your jet.

Insure it with high time pilots, you approved as SIC.

Go fly.

I think this would work. It will be annoying to always have to work around the contract pilot schedules, but this is how you get to your goals. In that first year, I'd create flights on purpose to places for training, and I'd make training days where you fly around, shoot approaches, practice stuff. That sort of flying is expensive (eats fuel), but has high value for proficiency.

Be warned, if your family is used to a Cirrus and they take one flight in the jet, there is really no way to go back.

Mike C.

I like this approach. Are there schools that have a 501SP sim (or aircraft) to do the ride? All this talk of the variations in the type ratings, SPE, etc has my head spinning. But from what I recall, you need to do your type ride in a 501SP in order to have SP privileges. Granted, I wouldn't actually fly SP for a while, but I'd rather satisfy the FAA in one shot.

Tarver, you called one of your birds a "trainer". Is that open to anyone to rent? I don't think I can do a type rating in 2 days like you were talking to Mike C about, though. Also, this is probably a Fall thing for me.


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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 21 Apr 2021, 13:40 
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You don't need 100hrs if Multi to qualify in a Turbo Commander. And it will do your NorCal trip direct without stops. Just saying.. ;)

True. On the TP side I was looking MU-2 or 441. MU-2 because the factory-owned service center is local to me and the factory has shown an incredible level of commitment to keeping these birds in the air. I also have read about how little they break. Of course the MU-2 would need a fuel stop to get to NorCal as well (depending on winds) while the 441 would do it with ease.

Parts and service availability for the 441 and Commanders are a concern to me. Cessna seems to love dreaming up ways to kill off the 441.


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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 21 Apr 2021, 13:41 
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Why are you not considering the 525's. They are single pilot.

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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 21 Apr 2021, 15:45 
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Username Protected wrote:
Why are you not considering the 525's. They are single pilot.

I suppose it was because I was infected by all of the TPE vs P&W threads on here. Plus browsing on controller the prices seemed pretty close and so why not get the larger cabin and larger range in the 441.

<EDIT> I can't read. I saw 525 and read 425 Conquest I. Nothing to see here... move along.


Last edited on 21 Apr 2021, 20:26, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 21 Apr 2021, 15:45 
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I like this approach. Are there schools that have a 501SP sim (or aircraft) to do the ride? All this talk of the variations in the type ratings, SPE, etc has my head spinning. But from what I recall, you need to do your type ride in a 501SP in order to have SP privileges. Granted, I wouldn't actually fly SP for a while, but I'd rather satisfy the FAA in one shot.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is if you don't have enough previous jet experience and take your 501 checkride in a sim, you have to do 25 hours Supervised Operating Experience after you get your type rating before the FAA lets you fly the plane yourself. If you do the checkride in a real jet, no 25 hours SOE is required.

The Florida Flight Center was touting this advantage as the reason to do the type rating in one of their actual jets as opposed to a sim.

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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 21 Apr 2021, 16:06 
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Username Protected wrote:
I like this approach. Are there schools that have a 501SP sim (or aircraft) to do the ride? All this talk of the variations in the type ratings, SPE, etc has my head spinning. But from what I recall, you need to do your type ride in a 501SP in order to have SP privileges. Granted, I wouldn't actually fly SP for a while, but I'd rather satisfy the FAA in one shot.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is if you don't have enough previous jet experience and take your 501 checkride in a sim, you have to do 25 hours Supervised Operating Experience after you get your type rating before the FAA lets you fly the plane yourself. If you do the checkride in a real jet, no 25 hours SOE is required.

The Florida Flight Center was touting this advantage as the reason to do the type rating in one of their actual jets as opposed to a sim.

Oh right. That does ring a bell. Ok, so need a real 501SP (or 551SP) for the type rating!

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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 21 Apr 2021, 16:18 
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Username Protected wrote:
Oh right. That does ring a bell. Ok, so need a real 501SP (or 551SP) for the type rating!

I don't think the checkride has to be in a 501 or 551, just any 500 series. This will get you the CE-500 PIC rating. There is no separate 501/551 type rating. But there can be limitations placed on the CE-500 rating, such as limited to SIC or SOE required.

Edit: if you take the checkride in a plane requiring two crew, like a 550, you may end up with a "SIC Required" limitation. Not sure if this is always the case, though.

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Last edited on 21 Apr 2021, 18:38, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 21 Apr 2021, 17:31 
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Username Protected wrote:
Are there schools that have a 501SP sim (or aircraft) to do the ride?

Yes.

At least Simcom and Flightsafety can do this and I think there are others. I just got my CE-500 type rating at Flightsafety Atlanta, entirely in sim, with checkride, and I have 0 jet time. The FAA says I can now be PIC in a Citation. I don't need SOE because I have lots of turbine time in the MU2. But my type says "SIC required" because I did the initial and checkride crew.

Quote:
All this talk of the variations in the type ratings, SPE, etc has my head spinning. But from what I recall, you need to do your type ride in a 501SP in order to have SP privileges.

I don't think so. If you do your initial and checkride as a single pilot in the sim, then you get a CE-500 type rating that allows you to fly 501SP single pilot, no SIC required.

Quote:
I don't think I can do a type rating in 2 days like you were talking to Mike C about, though.

I don't think that is realistic if you want to really be proficient, even for me with 4000 hours and 1600 turbine.

The insurance folks have pretty much required sim training for your type rating these days, too. My underwriter even limited me to either Simcom or Flightsafety, no other choices. If you get a quickie type in a real airplane, expect to have to do it over in a sim.

If you are serious about this, go get your multi (I did do that in 2 days at ATP, easiest rating to get ever), study Citation systems, and go do a type rating sim class somewhere as a single pilot for a 501SP. I'd recommend Simcom since they tend to be more owner operator oriented than Flightsafety. I chose Flightsafety because I had been to Simcom so much for the MU2 (the have the only MU2 sims) and I wanted a change, and I wanted the "pro" experience that they provide supposedly, and, oddly enough, Flightsafety was slightly cheaper than Simcom.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 21 Apr 2021, 17:34 
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Username Protected wrote:
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is if you don't have enough previous jet experience and take your 501 checkride in a sim, you have to do 25 hours Supervised Operating Experience after you get your type rating before the FAA lets you fly the plane yourself.

This will never be an issue because the insurance will require more than 25 hours mentoring anyway, so the SOE requirement is basically no factor.

Get typed in a sim.

Hire an instructor as your mentor your first flights in the real airplane and have them get you used to the airplane slowly.

Best of both worlds.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 21 Apr 2021, 17:39 
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Username Protected wrote:
Why are you not considering the 525's. They are single pilot.

Cost more to get, especially for longer range ones.

Have to pay money to the Williams mafia.

Can cost more to maintain, oddly enough, due to lack of used parts, tend to be on expensive programs, have more intense inspection requirements, and tend to be serviced more at factory service centers. More choices for the legacy series.

If the cost of entry is tolerable, they are an option.

They do have a CE-525 (crew) and CE-525S (single pilot) type rating distinction.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 21 Apr 2021, 18:08 
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Username Protected wrote:
Why are you not considering the 525's. They are single pilot.

Cost more to get, especially for longer range ones.

Have to pay money to the Williams mafia.

Can cost more to maintain, oddly enough, due to lack of used parts, tend to be on expensive programs, have more intense inspection requirements, and tend to be serviced more at factory service centers. More choices for the legacy series.

If the cost of entry is tolerable, they are an option.

They do have a CE-525 (crew) and CE-525S (single pilot) type rating distinction.

Mike C.

My two favorite words: Best Value.

Also, can't do this in a 525:
[youtube]https://youtu.be/XXCwtEy621o[/youtube]
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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 21 Apr 2021, 19:10 
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Mike,

Why did you take your type rating ride as a crew?

Mike


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